On The Couch with Rachel Wotton and Mohammed Samrah

[00:00:00] Jennifer Farinella: Hello and welcome to an episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.

This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country, we Acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work, and record upon. We pay our respects to Elders past and present and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcasts today.

While listening, we encourage you to practice good self care. Check the show notes for content details and references. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, enjoy this episode of On The Couch.

[00:00:47] Naomi Viret: It's my absolute pleasure to welcome both Rachel Watton and Mohammed Samrah On The Couch with us today. The academic and lived experience of the two of you is so overwhelmingly excellent and I'm very energized and excited about the conversations that we're going to have today.

Before we get settled, uh, into this space and to get to know you both a little bit better, I'd like to do a brief bio introduction for the two of you.

Rachel is a sex worker, academic, consultant, activist, educator, and public speaker with very vast knowledge. Rachel has recently completed and submitted her PhD titled, ‘Exploring the Experiences of People with Disability, Who Access Sex Worker Services in Australia’. Rachel is key to placing sex as a human right back onto the agenda and something that we will openly discuss On The Couch today.

Mohammed is a young man with cerebral palsy who has become an advocate for people with disability. A current social work student with Charles Sturt University, Mohammed is committed to making change for himself and others, ensuring a right to be supported in accessing sexual health education, reproductive health care and sex worker services.

 Before we get into talking about your work and experiences, we explore the concept of fields of existence and coordinates of belonging. So, Coordinates of Belonging being that we're a field of activity, we're made up of stories that we've been told, stories that our ancestors have passed on to us and, the land under our feet and the places that we stand, and all these forces of who we are in this moment as a contextual being.

And we thank Leah from the Co Culture Communication for introducing us to this concept. So, Rachel, over to you first.

[00:02:42] Rachel Wotton: Thank you for being here everyone. So I'm currently on Gadigal Land, part of the Eora Nation, which some people would know as inner West Sydney. Um, so I predominantly live, work and play in this area and as a young adult, this is where I've really grown up and matured and developed and, um, enjoyed my life.

But I am a migrant sex worker and an avid traveler. So I've combined my two loves and interests together. So, I, as a migrant sex worker, I often introduce myself as that because it really shifts the, the ideology of what someone thinks is a migrant sex worker because there's, um, there's all those tropes in the media about the, young Thai sex worker who doesn't have autonomy and which is not true there's really powerful, strong, independent sex workers all around the world.

Um, the other thing that I like to share, is that I'm a cat parent and funny enough, I can see both of them out the window, both lying on the couch right now, so it's very appropriate. and I do love that some of the best gifts or tips that I've ever had from clients is, um, Petbarn gift vouchers or people have sent the favorite treats of my cats to me as a kind of thank you so that's a little bit about me over to you, Mo.

[00:04:08] Mohammed Samrah: So, so I'm also a Western Sydney myself. Um, so for me, I'm an avid, avid traveler. I've started travelling myself and I've, I've started to know more about myself and what I'm into and what sort of, what I'm passionate about. And so um, and so because of that I went to, now I'm in uni so I'm very into my academic, academic side.

And I love, it just, it just makes me feel, feel wonderful that I'm able to give back to the, give back to the community that, that has given me so much as well. And, and also, and also I, I'm, I'm a big, I'm a big, uh, believer in culture and, and, and the fact that culture makes us feel a sense of belonging and a sense of, and a sense of warmth.

And so I believe that culture has played a big part into who I am today as well.

[00:05:11] Naomi Viret: Thank you so much for sharing. I agree, Mo, that culture is such a strong tie for many of us and where those beliefs and things come from for us and what sets those foundations for us.

 So thank you. Thank you both for that. I'm glad that we could spend some time in that space, getting to learn a little bit more about you. So it was really hard to decide where to begin with today's discussion, when we think about sex and disability, there are so many questions and that people may have, and I think we'd be doing a disservice to today if we didn't start by just discussing what's probably at the forefront of all of our minds, which is Sex, Disability and the NDIS, or the National Disability Insurance Scheme.

And it turns out that this webinar is actually really quite timely because there has been a lot of media around sex, disability and the NDIS just recently and we'll hear about your contributions to some of that soon, Rachel. But to set the scene for our audience today, could you please elaborate on what the current situation is or what the current issues are with the NDIS space and why is it so important for people with disability to be supported in accessing sexual and reproductive health education, but also supported sex or sex worker services if desired?

[00:06:31] Rachel Wotton: Well, first of all, I'd like to also acknowledge that there's a continuum of need and desire. So many, many people with disability throughout Australia and, in the world do not ever want to see or need the services of sex work services or a sex therapist or psychosexual therapist or specific sex aids.

But the reality is, is that the NDIS was supposed to be set up to holistically provide support for each individual with disability in Australia, to live an ordinary life equal to others. And I believe that every participant who's watching this presentation today online or on the podcast will have had some kind of, um, sexual or intimacy with another person as well as with themselves.

And so therefore, you can't just carve out a massive section of someone's life just because it makes people at the top of the NDIS feel a bit queasy about like, no, we're not doing that. So, there has always been that issue with the NDIS was introduced that, um, anything to do with one's sexual needs, relationship needs, intimacy needs, was never addressed.

There was never a policy, which has been very problematic. There has been different pushes for a policy to be created, um, and it hasn't happened. That said the reality is, is that if people supporting the individual participants have found that it's reasonable and necessary to be able to access sexual services in whatever manner fits their needs, then people have been able to be supported to use some of their funding, often through their core funding, um, to be able to do that.

There has been one federal court case which explicitly, supported the woman with MS to be able to include sex work services into her plan. There have been a couple of others that have gone through the AAT, the Tribunal is what we refer to it as. But my understanding is, is that, unfortunately, often people have to sign non disclosure forms. So we know nothing about it. Um, there's been lots of cases where people have been denied, even though there have been explicit and extensive reports showing the absolute need for it. So that's kind of where it is. But The added thing that has happened recently that you mentioned, Naomi, is that with the new bill that's come in, or the new act, um, for the NDIS, attached to that, which is supposed to go into effect on the 3rd of October, 2024, is this ridiculous list of approved and banned services.

And the current state, without any consultation within the disability community, or the sex worker community, or the therapy, or allied health communities, is that sexual services and sex aids are currently under a lifestyle heading and banned. Um, which is just ridiculous. So it's not set in stone, but I already know, unfortunately, that there seems to be a soft ban in place because, um, one of my invoices has been refused recently.

Um, and it appears that I'm not sure if it's the line item or if it's the line item plus my business name that's being targeted at the moment. So it's all up in limbo and nothing set in stone.

[00:10:21] Mohammed Samrah: Yeah, it makes me, it makes me a bit confused how people with no, with no disability whatsoever can make, can make judgments on people with disabilities that have no lived experience, that have, that have no, no common knowledge of what people with disabilities go through on, on, on a day to day basis.

So if, if they then want to tell us how to live our lives, they then should live a day in our shoes and see how long, see how long they actually last in our shoes. Um, because I believe that every person doesn't matter what disability you have, what cognitive impairment you have, you should be able to receive human intimacy in whatever shape, way or form that you can. And the fact that that that's been denied is a breach of human rights as well.

[00:11:15] Rachel Wotton: I'd like to add that, and you would have heard me say this in the media as well already, is that it actually goes against their own policy.

So they have an evidence based best practice policy, which you can clearly find on the NDIS website, that basically says "the primary source of evidence we rely on and give the greatest weight to is evidence from sources that are reliable and widely recognized. This includes published and referred literature and any consensus of expert opinions."

Now the experts who are writing the reports, in people's applications are being ignored and the applications are being denied, but also I managed to give a 36 minutes one on one consultation with Bill Shorten's advisor just before I left overseas in late August. So my research actually provides the most recent up to date relevant information. And at the moment they're currently turning their back on their own policy. .

[00:12:27] Mohammed Samrah: And just to add to that as well, sex service as a, as a whole has a vast different benefits. when it comes to participants accessing their services. Um, so for example, you know, self esteem, sense of worth, empowerment, um, confidence, pain management is another one. There's so many of these aspects that, that the NDIS has overlooked, solely to save, um, costs and deny people, deny people with disabilities their rights.

[00:13:04] Naomi Viret: Yeah, as you say, Mo, if they did a bit of a cost benefit analysis, when you take into consideration beyond the physical, that would be money very well spent.

And I do hope that they take your research on board, Rachel, because, as you said, you've spent years and years interviewing people with disability and finding out what it is that they want.

So, um, we would like to congratulate you, Rachel, on the recent completion and submission of your PhD work. We know that it is something that you've been very passionate about for literally decades, and I think to be able to get that academic evidence, as you say, behind it, and to really give a voice to people within the community, it's just so empowering.

So I know Rachel from your PhD findings that time and time again individuals were reporting the many benefits of sex that were beyond just that physical or pleasurable notion and you refer to these as being the eight motivational factors. Would you be able to talk us through what these motivational factors are?

[00:14:04] Rachel Wotton: Yes. Thank you. And thanks for the congratulations. I'm not Dr. Wotton yet. It's with the examiners, but hopefully it won't be too long.

So first of all, there's lots of findings and I am hoping to, um, put out an accessible summary on the website. So I, I created PASA - Research which is all the conference presentations, all the media that I've done, and the findings, and then eventually the full PhD will be put up there for everyone because I feel responsible to feedback to the community, especially all the participants who spend all their time.

There are 108 individuals throughout Australia with disability who did an online survey and then I interviewed 27 people. So I'd like to thank them again for their time, energy, experience and knowledge. Um, and there's many, many findings. First of all, I'd like to say that we need to move away from the heteronormative viewpoint of this.

So people were not just male, people presented many different genders and many different sexualities. And they also access services from sex workers who, were not just female. From my findings there were eight different motivational reasons and, some of it does correlate with previous literature and some of it is very new and very specific to, to a person's disability. So I'll read through the eight of them and then I'll go back and give some examples.

 First of all, sexual enjoyment, no surprise there. The second was a desire for sexual variety. The third was to combat loneliness and feelings of isolation. The fourth was seeking genuine intimacy and connectivity with another person. Then there was a lack of other sexual outlets in a person's life. And then a large one was around to increase a person's sexual literacy. And then there was an element of therapeutic healing. And the last one was to assist in a person's recovery and rehabilitation. So there's a lot to unpack there. I can't wait to share all my findings in detail with everyone.

So some of them obviously equal to anyone else, equal to previous research done about clients. And also, um, you know, really parallels most people's ideology and actions in life. So sexual enjoyment, people like sex, people like pleasure. So it's interesting that, um, it's like people get their knickers in a twist with the idea of funding a service that is pleasurable. It's like a service, you know, you must need and be in pain and, you know, suffer for, and it's a really bad concept, that people are approaching specifically, like the NDIS and what should be funded.

So sexual enjoyment, a desire for sexual variety, quite common, we're in and out of the disability sphere is if, um, if people at home, the primary partner, like certain things, but one partner actually likes other things, other sexual activities, maybe, um, sometimes likes to play with someone of a different gender.

So, people access sex work services for those reasons. Um, and, you know, a lack of other sexual outlets is also, one of those areas where people didn't have a primary person in their life. So people were accessing sex work services to celebrate birthdays or milestones in their life. And they, they wanted to have those beautiful rituals of a dinner, a walk along the beach, you know, being in a bubble bath, ordering room service, having a wild time for their birthday. And if they didn't currently have a partner, then they were quite happy with going to see a sex worker.

So, the other ones around combating loneliness and feelings of isolation is a large area in our life. And I started this PhD two weeks before the first Sydney lockdown, in 2020, remember that time? So it was kind of a wild time and, um, and I talk about it in my thesis in that, for a brief moment, people with disability were saying. Hey, like this is our life all the time when people were complaining about we can't go out or we don't have access to this or you know, we have to work from home.

People were like, yeah, welcome to our world, this is our full time world. Lots of people with disability for years were like, we can work from home, we can produce everything that you want from your employees at an office, but we can do it from home and people for years were like, no, we can't do that. And then COVID happened within 24 hours, everyone pivoted work from home.

So, um, there was a big focus during that time around loneliness and isolation. And there's actually been some loneliness projects emerge from both Australia and the UK. We know that when someone is isolated and someone is very lonely, that it actually negatively impacts their sense of self, their well being, their confidence, as Mo said, um, all these other areas, the desire to actually get out of bed and go to work or engage with other aspects of their life.

And so this was a really positive impact in people's lives when they actually started accessing sex work services. And that follows into seeking genuine intimacy and connectivity that even within the scope of a professional relationship, you can, you can still have that connectivity and joy and excitement and, um, you know, I always use the example of a barista, you've got your favorite barista, you get to know when their kids are born or where their, their dog is sick and they get to know about you and what's going on in your life. You have a professional relationship, um, and it can be close and intimate and the same can happen, and did happen with the participants in my research.

And then, to increase sexual literacy was around, um, a whole range of areas. So, people learning about consent was a really big area. For people with an acquired brain injury, people with intellectual disability, cognitive disability, people learn in different manners.

So for a lot of people, they won't learn just from reading a story and then suddenly being able to understand what to do in real life. People need role playing and they need to practice and so that's where sex workers can come in. So you can talk till the cows come home about, you know, good touch, bad touch, how to get consent.

But until you're actually role playing and doing that in a real life environment, um, then some people, are set up to fail. And we know that there's a huge amount of people with intellectual disability that have become part of the judicial system and have been arrested for criminal activities of like touching someone in public or being inappropriate sexually, but if they aren't learned and taught the skills, this is one of the positive areas that I really focused on, with the roles that sex workers can play.

Also, learning about what your body does and doesn't do. Um, also wanting to lose your virginity. Like if people miss the kissing behind the shed at school or at the back of the bus, holding hands, people have to catch up and people want to catch up. So there were like 40 and 50 year old virgins in my, cohort of participants and they had a fabulous time. And it's also about feeling of control and feeling safe. So unlike a lot of people in society thinking about sex workers as being untrustworthy, actually people with disability often see sex workers as providing a safe space and that really goes into the therapeutic healing aspect of it.

So people talked about having PTSD, people shared that they came out of toxic relationships or that they've been sexually abused and that they wanted to regain their autonomy, sense of self, their power, and they wanted to enjoy pleasure. So they wanted to use this as a therapeutic healing space. Which was amazing to have that information shared and really important aspect of people's life.

And then the last one that goes into that is recovery and rehabilitation. So when someone has acquired a disability, lots of people with spinal cord injuries, especially men, um, it's been documented, everyone says, Oh yeah, we need you to like, you know, feed yourself and like start talking. And people like, does it work? Do I have sexual functioning? How will I have sex again? Um, will anyone ever want to have sex with me? You know, what positions can I do? So these were some of the areas that sex workers provided really detailed and really valuable services, that the NDIS and the general public have not been aware of. So once again, I'd like to thank all my participants out there, if they're listening or watching, because without you, this research could never have been as thorough and as rich.

[00:23:52] Mohammed Samrah: Yes, I just wanted to add to, to, to, to what Rachel said. So, so one of the reasons I started to see sex workers, was that, like Rachel said, I, I wanted to understand what my, what my body was capable of and, and also, you know, and what it's gonna feel like for me because I've never done anything of that nature before.

So for, for me, that, and for me to try that stuff and, and then, and then to find someone that I trusted to take that first step with, that, that was a whole other aspect.

[00:24:22] Rachel Wotton: Yeah, what you said is really important and, it's, I think it's most important to hear from people themselves. Um, so thank you for sharing, your experiences, Mo, which complements all of the people who were involved in my research.

[00:24:40] Mohammed Samrah: Yeah. So, and then another aspect was, I started to feel lonely and I started to feel like I needed that sense of connection with, with, within myself. So, I needed to find a safe outlet for myself to experience that in a way that is not harmful to myself or harmful to people around me. So, for me, I found that this, in particular, was the best way to do that as well.

[00:25:10] Rachel Wotton: Yeah, and for some people, um, seeing a sex worker is a way to achieve their short term goals when a person's long term goal is often to meet a partner. And so there were a number of people in my research who no longer see a sex worker because they're engaged.

One person is engaged, which was delightful to hear. And other people were dating and said, yeah, it was good. I needed that then, and I learned lots of things about myself and my abilities and my sexual functioning or how to communicate with another person. And now I don't need to see a sex worker.

So this whole idea, once again, that it's a static thing. So, you know, once someone's seeing a sex worker, that's it for the rest of their lives is actually quite ridiculous.

 I really discovered for some people who'd never seen a sex worker before in their lives, when they'd either acquired a disability or their disability started progressing to a point so it negatively was affecting elements of their life, then sex work services was, um, an option that they, they really pursued.

So I think once again, it goes back to nothing about us without us, but also treating everyone individually. The NDIS will fund an electric wheelchair, for people with disability, but everyone who needs to use an electric wheelchair will have different requirements and not everyone with disability who's a participant of the NDIS will need an electric wheelchair. So it's about the diversity and really, giving people choice and control, which is once again, what the NDIS is supposed to be about.

[00:27:02] Naomi Viret: Yeah. Thank you both for sharing those insights. It's really valuable and, you know, it is that reminder to be thinking more holistically about the presentation of people with disability and I think we're really fast as a society to jump to conclusions or assume we would know or understand what somebody's desires or what their needs may be. And both of you have really highlighted that importance of having those conversations.

And Mo, if I could go back, um, when I first met you and you so eloquently shared your story and shared that, you know, it hasn't just been about sex for you, but it's opened up a whole new world for yourself. And you have already touched on some of that in terms of that self esteem and worth and being able to explore what your body's capable of. Is there anything else that you'd like to say to that? Like, as a young person, did you get sex education at school, for example?

[00:27:55] Mohammed Samrah: Yeah, of course. So, I, when I was in high school, I never actually received proper sexual education. So I, I only, I only received that later in my adult years. And, and then, and then because of that, I, I didn't know if it was possible. So all the, the lack of education also also made it exacerbate other factors. Um and then you put it, you put into effect the cultural aspect. Um, and that, that is family.

[00:28:26] Naomi Viret: Mm-Hmm. .

[00:28:27] Mohammed Samrah: Um, and that, that's a whole other, um, that's a whole other ball game because even then, you still don't get the education that you need from the family. So it's like, where do you turn to?

[00:28:41] Naomi Viret: And I remember at the time when we spoke, you felt that the family or the cultural concerns were more around your safety, yeah.

[00:28:48] Mohammed Samrah: Yeah, It was more around like what happens if you get what happens if you get a STD or STI? It wasn't there wasn't a concern, Are you happy? Are you okay with the person? It was more, it was more around, just the STD side, and also the cultural expectations as well, around our culture.

So, um, it has definitely, it has definitely opened up whole different avenues in terms of my opportunities, in terms of employment, education, new friend groups, um, how to interact with people, and just giving me a whole sense of possibilities and just fun and enjoyment. And a way to enjoy my life to the fullest as, as I possibly can. And it's been an absolute delight.

[00:29:48] Naomi Viret: I just love to hear it. I'd like to move on to talk about some of the experiences that both of you have shared that frustratingly there still seem to be so many barriers that are faced by people with disability in being able to access not just supported sex worker services but as you've touched on Mo, but even just the basics around sexual and reproductive health education.

I know that one of your TED Talks, Rachel, summed this up perfectly, we're withholding information, we're withholding resources, and we're gatekeeping pleasure. What do you two see as the main barriers and challenges that are currently being faced and how can we start to remove these barriers?

[00:30:32] Rachel Wotton: Well, first of all, I think there's still a lot of infantilization of people with disability. So, this whole idea that, even what Mo was saying, that people were concerned about, what if you get an STI, it's like, well, why don't you treat people as individuals, give everyone the correct information and everyone is autonomously responsible for your own sexual health, but informed consent means you need to know about what's going to happen. And what kind of options that you have. So, people need to have these conversations around, you know, condoms and lubricants and, um Femidoms or, you know, sex toys.

So, even, even in my day to day work as a sex worker providing services to a range of clients, including people with disability, I talk with a lot of third party support. So parents, support workers, occupational therapists, psychosexual therapists. Um, and lots of the time I'm like, what sex education has this person had? And they're like, oh, I don't know, I think they've got some at school.

I'm like, well, you need to like have these questions. So people are still still not able to have general conversations with their offspring or the people that they're that they're supporting, but there are actually a lot of resources out there. And I have to say people are not knowledgeable about the fact that condoms come in many sizes. People like, um, it's very sweet. I've had parents who, um, have supported their adult offspring to see me. And they're like, well, we bought you, we bought a box of condoms. I'm like, are they the size that fit you? And they're like, I don't know. I'm like, well, we can find out. I brought my own. Lots of different sizes. So there's another role that sex workers can play.

And, and Australia is kind of leading the way. I am still very proud of the different resources that are coming to the forefront in different organizations around the country. I try to share them on my rachelwotton.com website because people don't know where to go. So there are starting to be accessible, um, resources around sexuality, intimacy, relationships, even how to support someone to see a sex worker. So, overall, I think, find the resources, share the resources, and every organisation should have a sexuality and intimacy relationships policy, and if not, happy to help you write one.

[00:33:12] Naomi Viret: I love it. It's great. Is there anything that you'd like to add to that, Mo, just in terms of maybe some of those barriers or challenges that you yourself faced?

[00:33:19] Mohammed Samrah: So I guess one of the barriers that I see, and I feel like the, the easiest way to destigmatise sex worker, disability, all that stuff is make the conversation a normal thing to have. It's, it's nothing to be ashamed of. So, one of, one of the best ways to destigmatize this and normalize this and have a general open and honest conversation about it. So that, that's one of the barriers that I've seen. And then people's fear around opening up around that as well.

[00:33:52] Naomi Viret: It's a great tip, Mo, let's de-stigmatize and normalize the conversation, that's really good advice. Um, how it is that services or workplace can go about making actual change to their systems to better support people with disability when it comes to their sexual and reproductive health.

And I think you've already hit the nail on the head, Rachel, by saying, you know, if there's not already a policy in place, at least, you know, that's a really good place to start. Rachel, I know that in a lot of the work that you do, and that you talk about as well, is that beyond, I guess just that physicality, it meets that desire of skin hunger. Yeah, um, as Mo has already related to, it has that sense of belonging and in many cases it can be an alternate to other therapies such as pain relief or pain therapy. So what actions do you recommend that services take to make sure that people with disability are accessing the education and support that's needed?

[00:34:48] Rachel Wotton: I think providing different information in different formats. So it's no good just having a policy that's good for staff. And I think regular in service training, which happy to provide to organizations. But I think having posters, having the, the different flags up, having the rainbow flag, having the trans flag, um, acknowledging different days.

So we have international days of recognition of lots of different areas to do with gender and sexuality. Um, sex worker international days, international day of disability, um, organizing film nights, having the resources, paying for the different resources that they're there. And also something basic in terms of, um, in the intake forms when a new participant or client or service user of different organization is coming in.

You know, depending on the different organization, but if it's about dietary needs and mobility needs and communication needs, well what are your sexual and intimacy needs? Like just having it, as Mo said, part of the conversation, it's just one of many questions along the way. There seems to be lots of people scared of bringing it up out of the fear that, they'll, they'll be seen as a dirty deviant or that the board won't be accepting.

But actually, when the conversations have been happening, and, the evidence is there and we talk about it in a really respectful manner. And we talk about it in the diverse range of needs and desires, that actually we can come together and support people's needs in a really respectful way.

[00:36:36] Mohammed Samrah: And just to add to that, sometimes all you need is that one person to step forward and put their voice out there, and then the others will follow. They just need that one example to show them that yes, it is possible to speak your mind without suffering consequences.

[00:36:55] Rachel Wotton: I have often taught the PLISSIT model, which derived from the occupational therapy world. But PLISSIT is the P stands for permission. So it's the starting point. And then the LI is limited information, which most staff can do. Specific suggestions is the SS and then intensive therapy at the end, the IT, is often about just referring to someone who has that specific expertise. Um, and so most of that can be enacted within each organization and for staff.

So I think from the board down to the receptionist at front of house for different organizations. If everyone in organizations are getting the same training, then people don't think it's, Oh it's a secret or that there's just the one sex person that they will shunt everyone off to and they can deal with the questions, it's just a part of everything else. Um, it's a part of people's lives and, you know, the staff at organizations, often they go home to their partners or they're out dating or they're, they're enjoying life equally in terms of sexual expression. So what's good for us should be good for anyone that we're supporting as well.

[00:38:12] Mohammed Samrah: And just to add to that, I said, I I've tried dating, I've tried speed dating, I've tried Bumble, I've tried Tinder, I've tried Hinge, I've tried a whole bunch of it. And none of it works, so in terms of, um, you know, it's easy for people with disability to find someone, it's really not. So some of the, the best outlet for them is to access a sex worker as well. So it's really, really difficult then then people think it is as well.

[00:38:45] Naomi Viret: It's a great point. And, Mo I know that when we have had previous discussions, you spoke about the importance of building rapport with the support worker and feeling comfortable to be able to engage these conversations.

[00:38:56] Mohammed Samrah: Yeah. So, the, the, so, if it was a new supporter I'd be like, hey, um, I'd get to know them first, see their personality, see what they're like, and then once we get to know each other a bit better, then I'd be like, hey, are you comfortable supporting me in this area, in this aspect of my life?

And if they say yes, great, we move forward. If they say no, fair enough. That's their choice, you know. And so the best you can do is just be yourself, be honest about what you want.

And, and, and One sec.

[00:39:34] Rachel Wotton: Were there any other questions that you wanted me to answer while we're waiting for Mo to come back?

[00:39:40] Naomi Viret: Yes. So one of the things that really stood out for me, um, with Scarlet Road and one of the quotes that you make is that "everyone has a right to sexual expression and that includes people with disability."

Um, and you define the work that you're doing as putting smiles on people's faces. Allowing them to have a giggle and a laugh at life and exploring new adventures and you know, it is a reminder to us all to seize the day. So with that take home message of, you know, it is a sexual right, it is a human right, is there anything that you would like to say to that specifically in terms of either the documentary Scarlet Road?

[00:40:18] Rachel Wotton: Well, first of all, scarletroad.com.au has an updated website, and so, you can buy an institutional copy for any organization, um, so that you can, so people can use it in their internal, training for staff and people can buy individual copies so that you can stream it for three days.

Um, I don't know. I just, I just feel that everyone should be treated equally. And as you touched on before, I often bang on about skin hunger. And that is something that comes from psychology, which is part of my undergraduate degree. And that's about that real yearning for touch. And you see the dichotomy in Scarlet Road really beautifully where John's in the shower and people have like the butcher kind of vinyl apron on and the gum boots and the gloves, and then the difference between me and Mark who were in the shower and we're giggling and it's like soft lighting and, you know, we're near naked. And that was really expressed beautifully by, a number of my participants in my research as well about people wanting to have real touch, like skin to skin contact.

And that, that feeling, I invite everyone who's listening or watching to think about the next time that you're up against someone and touching them and feeling their heartbeat or hearing them breathing or just feeling that warmth of another person where either your hand to hand or your body to body, or you just, you know, got your feet up against each other on the couch.

If it feels good to you and you enjoy it and you're immersed in that experience, then everyone else should have the right for that as well. And we know that sexual expression changes for people throughout their lifetimes. And for some people, you know, they stop desiring different sexual contacts, so the intimacy and the desire for connectivity changes throughout the lifespan.

So I guess the final take home message is that, don't think that people's sexual expression stops at 40, and that one of the areas that I'm really focused on in my life is when we age, so the aged care sector, the nursing homes when lots more people are presenting with dementia, different forms of dementia.

So it's a whole other tricky area around informed consent for staff and the individuals, but there's emerging research and dialogue as well within the community, and certainly as a sex worker who's getting older, and my clients are getting older, and I'm really enjoying that. But, people are acquiring disabilities, we will all end up living with different forms of disability, whether it's dynamic, invisible, permanent, part time, you know, whether we have hip replacements, knee replacements, you know, all kinds of different things.

But I think that we should always just respect what people want, um, and be able to support people through their life journey. And part of that is our sexual expression through life as well.

[00:43:40] Naomi Viret: Absolutely. We have that, you know, desire for touch and affection from the moment we're born and essentially until the moment that we pass. And, you know, it is possible to go through that life, being asexual and not having sexual experiences, but it is that craving for that affection and that that love and that touch. So thank you for so eloquently putting that into words. Mo do you have any last takeaway message that you would like to give today?

[00:44:05] Mohammed Samrah: Yeah, of course. So one, one, one of the take home messages is that we are just like everyone else. We, we, we do things differently, but we are just like everyone else. And we, we deserve to, to, to have that in intimacy, that human connection, and we, we, we deserve to be treated equally.

[00:44:25] Jennifer Farinella: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook where you can share On The Couch with your colleagues, friends, and family. On The Couch is made by Jennifer Farinella, Naomi Viret, Maddy Stratten, and Winnie Adamson.

Until next time, peace, love, and protection.