On The Couch with Danyelle Mei Kaplan & Egan Magee

[00:00:00] Jennifer Farinella: Hello, and welcome to an episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.

This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal Country. We Acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work, and record upon.

We pay our respects to elders past and present, and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcasts today.

While listening, we encourage you to practice good self care. Check the show notes for content details and references. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, enjoy this episode of On The Couch.

[00:00:47] Maddison Stratten: I'm Maddy Stratten and it's my absolute pleasure to host Danyelle Mei Kaplan and Egan Magee On The Couch, and I'm so looking forward to exploring some really interesting topics in the queer space. Important topics like trauma informed practice, collective holding, mutual aid, community relationships, mental health and wellbeing.

So I'm kind of itching and ready to dive straight in, but first, let's get settled in this space and start to get to know our guests. So Danyelle is an accredited mental health, social worker of colour with over a decade of experience working in clinical and community organizations on Lenapehoking, which is New York City and Gadigal lands in Sydney. They specialize in providing anti-oppressive and healing centered support with people of diverse genders, sexualities, intersex variations, which we'll continue to refer to in today's chat as LGBTQ2IA+ They dream of helping people heal their relationships with themselves and others to create systemic change and liberate each other within colonial structures that are based on white Western models of justice and wellbeing.

Egan is a massage therapist, a body worker, a cat dad, an occupational therapist in training with a new hyper focus of crochet, which we love. He is passionate about ensuring resources get to the experts, the communities and the individuals with lived experience.

So they were just some highlights from your bios, but I recently came across psychotherapist Leah Manaema from Co Culture on Instagram, um, and really resonated with their work around indigeneity and collectivism.

What I loved about their resource was this concept of fields of existence. Right? That our beings are a field of activity made up of stories that we've been told, our ancestors that have existed, the land under our feet and the places that we stand and all of these forces form who we are in this moment as contextual beings.

So I'd love to get started with both of your stories and how you define and locate yourselves and what your coordinates of belonging are. So I'll hand over to you.

[00:03:05] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Thank you. Thanks so much, Maddy. Um, just want to say thanks for having us here and I'm very glad to be joining you from beautiful Gadigal land. Sovereignty was never ceded. This always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Coordinates of belonging. My coordinates are very, um, vastly far apart. Um, I have ancestry, um, in Hong Kong Chinese culture, uh, Filipino culture, and also Jewish culture. I identify as an anti Zionist Jew and Um, as we'll talk about more today, um, the, the personalist political, who I am informs how I work.

Um, and yeah, I'll, I think that's enough for me for now.

[00:03:59] Egan Magee: Yeah, like Dan said, thanks for having us. Uh, yeah, coordinates of belonging. Um, my lineage as far as I know comes from, uh, like Irish, English, Scottish, mishmash of white people. Um, and yeah, I don't really have much of a knowledge of my, uh, family lineage beyond my grandparents.

So in terms of like that sort of belonging, I don't really know. Um, at this moment, I'm trans. I am sort of dancing between this allied health space and sort of, uh, that's like embedded in, um, health structures and also, uh, my own practice, which is sort of like health adjacent and more like community rooted, um, and working with peers.

I have a history of sex work. I don't do that anymore. Um, but I still feel like I have quite a, a lot of sense of belonging in that community. Um, yeah, queer, yeah lots of different places. And I, I guess for me that idea of, coordinates of belonging. It's, uh, like the belonging that I have right now it's a bit of a moving target, like there's some things that aren't shiftable, like my, um, my whiteness and, uh, my history, but as I move through life, those coordinates sort of shift as well. So that's kind of where I am at the moment.

[00:05:28] Maddison Stratten: Yeah, it's a really interesting concept that make so much sense to me once there was some language around that, I was like, Oh my gosh, I need to like really workshop this for myself. And so I feel like that's kind of a, a nice little activity that we could all do to kind of work out what those fields of existence are as a way of connecting with each other.

Dan, what I love about Magkasama Therapy is that you share that you are not a nice white lady with a soothing voice and that's your words I find your voice very soothing. But you're a Filipino, Hong Kong, Chinese, Jewish, queer, non binary person who lives and believes wholeheartedly that individuals are the experts in their own lives. You have a commitment to centre marginalized people of colour in your work with LGBTQ2IA+ mental health, gender diversity, transition support, complex trauma, violence and dynamics of power and control, systems of privilege and oppression, grief and survival.

[00:06:32] Maddison Stratten: And this is such important work and I know so valued. Um, I'd like to just spend a little bit of time here if you, if you can, just to tell us how you got into this work.

[00:06:42] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: For sure. Um, I, I think being, a neurodivergent kind of multiply marginalized person growing up, I was always oriented towards um, a particular sense of justice and also just having really big feelings, um, all the time.

Um, especially with like living in the diaspora and having migration experience and also being the descendant of of survivors of of trauma and genocide . Um, I think that really shapes how I got into this work because concepts of justice and the lack of it has always been, um, around in my life.

And as I continued, my path of interest just sort of naturally led me to, um, intersections of who I am, which is around like, um, LGBTQ2IA+ mental health, with a special interest in queer and trans people of colour and and their mental health. Instead of kind of telling my life story, which is like one of enormous, um, privilege to have the access to education and resources that I have to be here.

[00:08:08] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Um, I thought that it was maybe more interesting to name some people in my solidarity team who've kind of been really pivotal in helping me be where I am today. So my, um, like staunch badass grandmothers and ancestors. I had a model of um, queer and, um, POC queerness and, and mentorship in a really pivotal elder named Del Villar when I was growing up, um, on Lenapehoking, I had the enormous, privilege of working with and loving, uh, Miss Victoria Cruz, at the Anti Violence Project, shout out, um, who absolutely, showed me the preciousness of elders and living ancestors and dissolve the ideas of expertise and clinical distance as anything except another form of white supremacy.

 And then on Gadigal lands, um, learning from Rebecca Howe and Jaeger McEwen, um, who really modeled radical love. And showed me that the problem is the problem. People are not the problem, especially not marginalized and oppressed people. Um, my supervisor, Sekneh Hamoud Beckett, who also showed me radical love and taught me about worthiness and how we are, we are our own best resources.

And that who clients tell me I am is much more important than what my boss thinks of me. And, um, And you Egan, my collaborator, co-conspirator, you, you, collaborator, co-conspirators, you know, like, these are the people who keep me grounded in my values, who remind me who I am, and who shoulder me up and contextualize my experiences of spiritual pain and rage, um, and despair, um, and informs how I can, fully show up as myself, um, in this work while, while also surviving the colony. That's my very long answer. Thanks.

[00:10:38] Maddison Stratten: It's a beautiful answer because there is, there are so many people in there that you've been able to, to highlight as part of that, that journey to where you've got into the work. And I love that it is like this community in this real sense of support for, for each other and, and Egan, Dan did specifically ask if you could join us for this conversation. So I really look forward to hearing from you because Dan speaks very, very highly.

So, uh, I'll just read a little bit what I've learned from you online. You work from a person centered, body neutral, trauma informed, queer, and transliterate perspective. Make treatments a collaboration between the client and the practitioner. You have shared with me before that you aim to create a practice that prioritizes care and access for historically marginalized and excluded people, uh, not only for physical comfort, but for joy and nourishment.

We love a good inception story. So can you please tell us how you came into your work and also a little bit of a story of how you and Dan connected.

[00:11:49] Egan Magee: People ask me this a lot and I uh, I feel like the answer is not actually that exciting. I, um, I don't really know how I, I just kind of fell into it in a way.

My life has sort of, uh, been on a, like atypical timeline um, you know, like leaving school, going to uni, doing the thing, blah, blah, blah. Uh, I did an undergrad when I was like 23, which is technically like 'mature age'. Um, so like I went in and I did my undergrad in medical science and then ended up with this degree and then was like, cool.

I don't know what to do with this now and I don't know what to do with my life. Um, uh, I started sex work when I was about 19. So, I was doing that alongside my degree and then I got to the end of it and then was really, really burnt out and, uh, kind of just have this piece of paper and I didn't really know.

I knew that I really loved bodies and I knew that I love physiology and I knew that that was a really exciting space for me. But I also knew I wasn't built to live in a lab or do like very sterile work. So I just continued doing sex work for um, right up until COVID actually COVID was the reason that I stopped.

And it was just such a wonderful space for me, like I really love, uh, that relational aspect of working with people and working with bodies is a very comfortable and like nourishing place for me. Um, there's a lot of yeah, reciprocal nourishment that comes from that intimate space whether it's sex work or, bodywork that's not sexual, uh, it really is just this place where you, you go into an agreement of trust with somebody and you have to hold that very carefully.

Whether someone's being active or they're just lying on a table, like you are both in a really active conversation with each other and that's the thing that I've always really, really loved. Yeah, I kind of got to my late 20s and, um, was getting quite burnt out by sex work, mainly just because of the financial insecurity, that style of work is just so hard to predict. And it's also a kind of, it's something that I didn't realize until later, but, um, having a job where you can actually tell people what you do.

Mm-Hmm. It really changes your social dynamics. And that was a, a really massive strain for me, um, that every time I met someone new, I had to weigh up. Like, would I lie, would I not? Mm-Hmm. So all that stuff kind of led to burnout and, um, yeah, I thought I just, I knew that I wanted to work with bodies and I think logistically I, I'm a very impulsive person. I like just looked up the thing and I was like, cool, I can do this diploma in a year and a half.

I can be working like that's compatible with my life at the moment. And sort of did it on a whim and then was like, actually love this. And it was a stepping stone to marrying the work that I feel like I'm good at and I love with my community and with people that I care about and feel that sense of belonging with and, um, yeah, and then I started and then it just kind of spiraled from there and it's seven years ago and.

Danyelle Mei Kaplan: It's spiraled.

Egan Magee: It's spiraled I know that's not a good way to put it it just, it grew like a a beautiful tree. Um, but yeah, that was seven years ago. And yeah, I reflect on my work a little bit. So I'm one of the, one of the many people who came out as trans during COVID. And like, I, I laughed so much when I think about like the first, like, four or five years of my practice being like, this is the place for, for trans people to feel comfortable. I'm cis, I'm not trans, but everyone, all the trans people can feel comfortable about coming to me, but not me. Not me. Yeah.

And then, uh, COVID happened and I stopped doing sex work. And then I stayed inside my house for three months and then I was like, oh, no. .. I think , I think actually, I think actually it's me. That's kind of what I mean by, like, reciprocal stuff, like every little interaction with the people that I work with has added some level of, like, reflection on myself, or growth in myself, or, you know, um, there are very few spaces where I feel completely seen, and I'm really lucky to have a workplace where I do feel that 99 percent of the time. And that's just because I have the best clients in the world.

[00:16:20] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Hmm. And like, that's also informs kind of how we connected. Not that I even remember exactly how we, how we met. But, um, I think like finding shared values in each other and feeling safe to grow and be creative and also just like despair with each other.

[00:16:44] Maddison Stratten: When you find your people, right? Like, it all just makes sense when you, when you find your people.

[00:16:50] Egan Magee: I think actually our relationship. really deepened like through lockdown stuff because, I think for both of us, the people that we were working with, the repercussions of lockdown and, and like just the whole intensity of, of that couple of years, uh, our people were managing so much.

And I, I think our relationship really started by looking to each other for professional, like peer support through that. And then, um, yeah, that just sort of grew into more of a friendship.

[00:17:20] Maddison Stratten: Yeah, yeah, I love that.

I've been reading into the integrated framework, which includes a response based practice, narrative therapy, somatic trauma informed and healing centered approaches.

You said that respectful therapeutic relationship is more like walking alongside each other rather than a top down power dynamic, which I obviously love that idea of co-creating spaces that are client centered, um, it sounds super collaborative and safe to explore and be curious in the practice.

And I can kind of feel that already in the introduction and the conversations that we've already had. Dan, can you share why you walk alongside a client and how they are experts in their own lives?

[00:18:05] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: For sure. Um, so I think the, the important thing to acknowledge um first off is that we are all working within an inherently white supremacists and colonial health system and many other arms of of white supremacy in education and, um I mean, welfare, everything, it's inescapable. And so power dynamics exist and therapists hold incredible power, as an extension of that colonial system in the room and in the world. And this power dynamic can very, very easily reinforce trauma and violence, especially with multiply marginalized people.

That's what I hear a lot as well when people come to me. I believe that, um, it's my ethical obligation, as a therapist’s, ethical obligation, um, to share power as much as possible in what Vikki Reynolds calls, bridging the power vortex, which just says, like, we are not equals entering this room under the gaze of white supremacy.

And if I don't name it, then it won't be named. And people are very rarely treated as experts on their own lives in the arms of colonial systems. For example, dealing with social services, advocating for themselves in medical systems, with Centrelink. And it's pretty incredible what can happen when people are just met where they're at and they're believed and recognized for doing their best while also surviving the colony.

I believe it's my obligation to make it public because of these power dynamics, um, to make it public about who I am and what my values are so that people can make an informed decision about whether I am the right person for them. And I always preface my input by reinforcing that people can tell me if I'm wrong, because it's very possible that I am wrong. They are the experts on their lives and how things feel and what things mean. I just guide or lead with curiosity and let people go where they want to go without any kind of pathologizing or expectation from me.

[00:20:45] Maddison Stratten: Yeah, so can you talk us through a little bit more around how you centre anti-oppressive intersectional and decolonizing ethics in this therapeutic approach? And maybe a little bit more around your passion for centering, uh, I guess, racial and social justice principles in your practice.

[00:21:04] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Sure. So I think one of the best or the simplest ways that I center anti oppressive ethics and decolonizing ethics in my work is by by allowing myself to be myself, and to be an active companion, collaborator, co-conspirator, and gate opener wherever possible as clients go where they want to or need to process that day without judgment, expectation, or pathologisation.

I'm really not interested in this kind of White Saviour oriented idea that I help people heal. Um, because that reinforces that weird power thing that I don't want, um that we were just kind of talking about. I am much, much more interested in helping people understand themselves better, understand their relationships better, and understand that they are not the problem.

The problem is the problem, which is white supremacy and systemic oppression and trauma incurred by these conditions on a daily basis, not just on a one off. And that then facilitates healing or a transformation in the ways that they want. I really wanted to share a really cool way of phrasing, what I want to do, or what I dream to do within the framework of decolonizing ethics in this work.

Inclusive Therapists on Instagram, had really perfect phrasing, so I'm going to borrow from them with um with gratitude. “I really, really am interested in using my power and resources to actively betray my role and upholding colonial violence to pay reparations and support land back and justice doing movements, including that of Palestine. To hold one another accountable, starting with the most powerful, to dismantle whiteness, white feminism, and white supremacy delusion, and to divest from colonial capitalism as much as possible”. That is what I'm down for.

[00:23:21] Maddison Stratten: Yeah. And I really felt that just kind of go all the way through my body as you, as you read that out and as you explained that, so I really appreciate you, speaking to that because I think it's really important to be able to, to, I guess, put the words around how we feel around those topics.

So, thank you so much, Dan.

For our listeners, how our listeners provide, non-pathologising, respectful and empowering care and support through their own work, whatever that might be.

We've got quite a large listenership, very diverse.

[00:23:56] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Um, my notes for this question are so helpful. “Try not to be shit if you can possibly help it to the best of your ability”. That's kind of what it boils down to. I thought maybe I would reflect on the modalities that I specifically enjoy in the kind of therapy that I do, which informs how at least I think I can best provide the most empowering care and support.

I work through a lens of harm reduction, which means I don't expect perfection. Perfection is a myth of white supremacy and expecting abstinence or any kind of black and white totalizing behavior or, or outcomes is actually not sustainable, not reasonable and not very human. Um, and so harm reduction just says, you do your best as much as you can, and you hold some compassion for yourself when you are not perfect. And this extends to, you know, like substance use, mental health, self harm, suicidality. Um, things that people are often really made to feel shamed and judged for not getting right or not fixing in a, in a concrete and time contained way.

So there's harm reduction and abolition. Basically abolition is seeking restorative justice instead of historic punitive measures in colonial systems and ending the conditions which lead people to being policed, leading to them being imprisoned and, modern slavery and loss of life and oppression. Those are two really core principles. Um. And I really like narrative therapy, Sekneh Hamoud Beckett, again, all credit to her for really showing me that narrative, like, meshes with my ethics and how I, um, how I approach things.

And more and more, I'm really enjoying Internal Family Systems or parts work because it's very flexible. Um, these are just modalities that are very, very, very flexible and and most of all, restore justice, dignity and autonomy to clients. So that's that is my long winded answer to how I think I try my best to provide that kind of care.

[00:26:39] Maddison Stratten: Some really big topic areas, you've introduced abolition already, and, and I guess the narrative perspective of naming and dismantling oppressive systems of power and liberation through solidarity, decolonization, and as you said, abolition. But was there anything in this that you wanted to add maybe around justice doing before we move into a different topic area because I don't want to, I don't want to brush over it. Yeah.

[00:27:03] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Of course, for sure. Thank you. So instead of telling you what I think these things are, I think I'll try to illustrate it with how we try to do things within the best of our ability at Magkasama. So the one way that we incorporate justice doing and sustainability into our organizational choices is intentionally by prioritizing sustainability for all. As best as we can, we know that there's no ethical consumption under capitalism, and that perfection is a myth of white supremacy.

We are just doing our best. One of the ways that we do our best is by having something like a sliding scale. That structure maximizes our capacity to provide accountable, accessible and fee free services wherever possible. And also kind of as like, collateral benefit invites people to participate in mutual aid and community care in that way.

By sharing power through advocacy and the metaphorical gates that my name on a letter can open because I could afford to go to school and get the right letters after my name, which means that people believe me more and take me more seriously, um, than my amazing clients. Also, by intentionally seeking out collaborators like Egan, who I can co-conspire with, and howl at the moon at, and build community with our shared ethics, um, I knew that I could trust him with our people, um, it's intangible, but essential lived experience that, that makes it work. And I try to use the most expansive, client led, flexible, Indigenous informed, uh, therapeutic frameworks wherever possible to complement the directions that people want to go.

[00:29:03] Maddison Stratten: Yeah, thanks so much for, for sharing that. I would like to move on now to obviously starting with trauma informed practice. It's a term that hopefully we have all heard many times in our work. I'll do a brief introduction just as a, as a reminder, a refresher I suppose.

Uh, trauma informed practice seeks to create environments that promote healing, recovery, and empowerment for individuals who have experienced trauma, whilst also recognizing the broader societal and systemic factors that contribute to trauma. It emphasizes empathy, compassion, and a commitment to promoting the wellbeing of those who have been affected by trauma. So that this doesn't become a trauma informed workshop, I'll hand over to now to, to share with us, I guess, um, how you work within this approach and really what we could be doing to not fall into this potential performative trap where, um, we're just, you know, ticking a trauma informed box.

[00:30:04] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: I appreciate your framing of this question Maddy um, do you want to do you want to kick us off?

[00:30:13] Egan Magee: Yeah, I mean, I think um trauma informed is like a catch all, like I think that there's trauma informed approaches, it kind of goes in two prongs where there's like trauma informed structures, whereas like how you structure your organization, versus like trauma informed practice, like person to client, or like person to whatever term you use for the people that you work with, and yeah, I feel like they're, they're different because one is talking about a systemic organizational level kind of, um, considerations, whereas the other one is, is looking at, uh, my approach to the person in front of me.

I find it interesting because when I started trauma informed approaches in terms of my dealings with my client are very central to my practice, but I feel, um, I'm in an interesting place where I feel like over the last year or two, I've become a lot more critical of that.

And I'm not really sure if trauma informed really, uh, like sits yeah with me in the same way that it did before. I feel myself much more pulled towards more healing centered engagement kind of practices. Uh, and one of the main critiques of trauma informed approaches is if we're talking about like being informed by trauma, then it sort of positions someone as being defined as this event that has happened to them.

Yes. And it positions trauma as like a thing that happened. Yes. And that's what we need to be aware of with this person rather than, uh, healing centered engagements that pull the focus way more into, uh, social and systemic factors. Yes. That we are immersed in every day and the intersections that people live at will mean that they, they have daily experiences.

Sometimes that can be something that is an event that you can name and some, and like most of the time it will be the daily occurrences that can erode someone's sense of, um, uh, well being in the world. So pulling it into healing centered engagement, it also puts it more in a sort of like future focus and expands it out.

So again, coming back to that stuff that Dan was talking about of like, the problem is the problem, the person isn't the problem. So if we, if we can broaden out the perspective to see that, then, then that individual immediately becomes less pathologised and immediately becomes about what's the best way for you to be able to survive in the world to give you the maximum amount of well being rather than like, what kind of therapy are we going to do about your trauma? Like they're very, very different approaches. Yeah. Um, also just when you're talking about, uh, like walking alongside people, it just made me think of that concept of like, um, uh, like inevitable recovery.

Hmm. And how, like every single day, every single thing that you do gives you more, it gives you more information. It gives you a new experience. It gives you more opportunity for growth. And if people are supported in the right way, taking into consideration the context that they're in, then like, every single thing that they do will give them more information to then be able to grow and reflect and see their own ability to make it through the world.

Yeah, and with the right support, like, it's just inevitable that somebody will get to where they want to be. Like, we're just really there to kind of do the holding as we go, but the person, like being able to engage with the world in the ways that they want and need to, and not just for being, like, a self improvement project.

No. Like, you know, letting go of that and being like, actually, what makes you happy? Yes. You know, moving with that.

[00:34:20] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Yes. What you just said reminded me of, something that, a couple of the people that I mentioned earlier in my solidarity team, Rebecca Howe and Jager McEwen really taught me, um, that the, the goal is not for us to, to work forever or to, to, to facilitate that forever. The goal is to share skills, share knowledge so that one day, hopefully we're not needed. Like, I would, I, my dream is to work myself out of a job. Um, yeah, I think that does that kind of mesh with what we're talking about?

[00:35:01] Egan Magee: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, like, yes. Also like for a lot of people, we will always need. Yeah, support, absolutely. But also, um, that doesn't necessarily mean therapeutic support. Yeah. It means like it's, again, coming back to that idea of the landscape that we live in, our skill sets of therapists are siloed, right? Like there is gate-keeping around knowledge of how to support people. Yes, and this is different depending on what communities you belong to, what your experiences with community care, like cultural considerations. Um, my context here, I feel like you have your, uh, you have therapy people do this, social workers do this, you know, but like, uh, generally my experience of social community, we're quite deprived of the skills to be able to support each other in that, in that community way.

And I, and like the things that were kind of taught straight away is like, if you need help, we'll send you here. And so yeah, I think it kind of marries with that of like, I would love to be put out of a job. But I think for that to happen, it's more, it's again at that systemic level. Yes. Yeah. For sure.

Also like the thing of, of, um, coordinations of belonging and that sort of thing. I think that it's also important to bring in that like belonging can can really suck sometimes like I belong to some groups that I wish that I didn't, you know, having a chronic illness, I am nourished so much by peer experience and, um, and connections with community of people who have chronic illness.

I kind of really wish I wasn't though, you know, I think holding that in mind that belonging it's very meaningful and a key part of, um, of wellness, but also like, it's saddled with a lot of grief. Yeah. And I guess I'm tying that into like trauma informed approaches of like, yes, we want to be strength based. Yes, we want to be, um, looking forward and like future focused and, um, bolstering people's sense of self efficacy. But I think holding that in mind as well of like, actually some stuff just sucks and it always will. And yes, there are days when it sucks less, but it just does. And that doesn't inherently mean pathology.

That just means like, some things just aren't very nice.

[00:37:39] Maddison Stratten: And it makes me think back to, you know, those fields of existence that Leah talks about. And she gives this great definition of self sovereignty being this ability to have autonomy and dignity over our own field. And I feel like that really kind of connects with what you're saying.

Um, you know, that the more that we nurture relate and are curious about, speaking to our relationships with our coordinates of belonging, the more autonomy and dignity we have over our fields of existence, the more ungovernable we become, um, and the more we're able to find each other and I guess bond through our resistance and our commitment to healing. And I guess then the more agency we have over the work, um, and the way that we move ourselves throughout the land and how we shape our world, and I think that really kind of connects with what you were saying then around belonging.

And the other thing that I was thinking about was this sense of holding and I want to talk about collective holding. It's a term that, uh, our listeners may or may not be familiar with. When we talk about collective holding in the queer space, it refers to the practice of creating and maintaining supportive, inclusive, and safe environments within our queer communities.

It involves individuals collectively supporting and uplifting each other, especially in the face of discrimination, prejudice, or marginalization based on sexual orientation, gender identity, or expression. So to go a little bit deeper, this concept encompasses various forms of support, including emotional support, validation of experience, providing resources and information, advocating for rights and equality, creating spaces where individuals feel accepted and respected for who they are.

Collective holding recognizes that systemic oppression and societal stigma can negatively impact the wellbeing and mental health of queer individuals. And it encompasses the importance of community solidarity and mutual care, which you both have touched on already, as a means of resistance and empowerment.

So that's a little introduction of collective holding, uh, but in practical terms, collective holding can manifest through community organizations, support groups, online forums, social events, other platforms where queer individuals come together and share experiences, help and build connections.

It's about fostering a sense of belonging and solidarity within the queer community to promote individuals and collective wellbeing. So I've done a lot of talking there, but I felt like I had to kind of introduce the, the concept before we hand over to you to, to go that next layer deeper and, um, tell us why this is so vital and, and how you both create this in the work and in your own lives.

[00:40:23] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Thanks Maddy. I thought it might be helpful to reflect on the particular dilemmas and also the healing potential of working within the same communities that we live within, um, why it's so hard and but also why it's so worth it, um, in the spirit of decolonization and deconstructing white supremacist ideals of clinical distance.

Mm, um, and honoring ancestral ways of showing up for each other. I'll talk a little bit about how like, clinical distance is something that shows up a lot, at least for me, um, especially when my, my imposter shows up and says, 'you're not good enough, or you're not working the right way.'

Because what we are taught is good practice is often what retraumatizes people who we work with, because it's based on white cultural norms and white institutional norms of justice and well being. My supervisor Sekneh Hamoud Beckett, taught me about radical love. I remember when I was earlier in my, in my career and I raised like, 'I, I keep, I keep feeling like, because I am in the same community that I am too close or that my, my boundaries must be bad because I feel or I relate so deeply to the people that, I'm working with' Sekneh taught me about this idea of radical love, which is that we can have a radical kind of love for the people who we work with, who we are taught as clinicians we are more knowledgeable than, or have to be distant in a particularly clinical way with, as a way of reinforcing good practice. She really dissolved that for me to say like, that is, that is white supremacy at work. We can have radical love for ourselves, for the people we work with, as has been done in ancestral ways since time immemorial.

It's how we come up, how we are accredited, qualified, credentialed really shapes how, how okay you feel with bringing those parts of yourself into the, into the work, because according to white Western medical models, if you are not clinically distant, then you have bad boundaries.

[00:43:18] Maddison Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. But we're not robots. Yes. Right? and I don't want to be a robot either because I, because I feel, and I have empathy and I have compassion and kindness, and I feel connected to that person. And how could you not, you know?

[00:43:33] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Yeah. Yeah. If I can, if I can expand on that, just a little bit more, um, Vikki Reynolds collaborated on an amazing article called Not On Our Backs, which really breaks down the dilemmas of belonging and, and isolation that many, um, queer, trans and First Nations and practitioners of colours feel when working and living within the communities, that they're also part of, because realistically, we were never meant, we were never dreamed of by, um, institutions to be in this role.

Speaking for social work, specifically, it was always conceptualized of as uh, a profession where predominantly, um, uh, privileged or upper class or upper middle class white women would have the skills and knowledge to go into other communities, particularly marginalized communities to, to disperse, to, to, to hand out judgment and, and guidance and whatever, and then to go back to their nice intact bubbles that are totally separate. People like us were never dreamed of to be here to have these dilemmas. So when we do have them, or when institutions reflect that back on us and say, 'your boundaries are shitty' because you're, you're, empathizing too much or you're, you are, you're feeling implicated in what you're working with and it reinforces itself over and over like this. So we, we were never imagined of being here. There's no real template.

[00:45:19] Egan Magee: Yeah. Yeah. Which is the same in occupational therapy. Yeah. Like OTs is a profession dominated by white. Yes. Essentially like mostly middle class women, um, which in the last, uh, the last few years has been gaining like more and more critique on that. But, uh, but yeah, exactly like we were never expected to be here, but I think that's the same as like anything within, within Western models of, of health provision.

Like, you know, it's made for, on a really specific template for a really specific group of people in a really specific way. So it means that inherently, uh, it's not just that we're not represented, that we don't have easy choices in terms of finding people with lived experience or like experiences similar to us, but we also like, we just aren't included in, service design. Like we're just not there. Like before you even get to things like, is it, is it client directed or trauma informed or healing centered or whatever? It's just like, we're just not even there. It's like missing completely. So yeah. And I think that when talking about, uh, when talking about boundaries and like, yeah, working within the same communities that you're part of, um, I think that brings up a really essential question of how fair is the distribution of labor on that and the lines between, prioritizing the voices of people with lived experience to be able to, um, to show up for their peers.

But that doesn't mean that we are the only ones that should be holding the labor of this. And when you are working with people, like when you're holding people in whatever modality it is, um, that have a similar experience to you, you're both showing up for them, trying to keep your own self sustainable, but you're also bearing witness to multiple, you know, like we see, like Dan sees like six people in a day, you know, I see like five on a busy day.

So it's like, you have multiple times a day where you're bearing witness to someone, uh, to a peer you know, maybe going through hard stuff in their life, but navigating an incredibly unjust system. Yes. And seeing that their situation is 10 times harder because the system is treating them like shit than what it could be.

And so like that is a really deep and like Vicky Reynolds talks about it as like spiritual pain. Yeah. That, that's what leads to burnout. Yes. That's what our burnout is. It's, it's about. Yeah. Um, it's that extra dimension of labor. Yes. As a person working with people that you know what it feels like in, in a vague way.

Like nobody's experience is ever the same, but like we see our, our people and we care for them and we have that radical love for them and we know that, that they have everything that they need. Yeah. And if they could just be supported in the way that they deserve, things would be really different. But you keep hitting up against those barriers to try and do that.

So like, the idea of, um, yeah, labor dispersal in terms of care, I think is a really, really important, important one. And also, you know, so for people like both of us, we work for ourselves, like, you know, because there aren't necessarily homes for us in, in traditional structures. So then you add on the extra labor of like surviving, trying to do the work in capitalism and, you know, yeah, it's hard.

[00:49:10] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: I think what you're talking about is so important because I really want to emphasize our clients don't burn us out, unjust systems burn us out. That is what makes things unsustainable. That is what, what perpetuates daily microaggressions and retraumatization.

[00:49:35] Egan Magee: And I think like trying to put that in, in real terms, you know, we can name problems yeah to the end of time because there are so many . Um, but you know, I think for people working in those spaces who, who, yeah, don't have that kind of lived experience, if you're hearing it and you're like, that's such good information I don't know how to apply it. I think a really important thing is, is like going back to first, before you're thinking about doing any action, go back to your reflective practice.

Like, figure out actually, you need to locate yourself where you are, to know where to move from. So, coming back, who am I, what is my practice, what are my perspectives, what's my worldview, who do I work with, what do I think about, where do those thoughts come from, what is it informed by, and really locating yourself to know where you are and why you think the things that you do.

Yes. And then thinking about, okay, so like, what do I need to, to flesh this out into a more holistic practice? Who do I need to learn from? What colleagues, uh, have experiences that I can learn from? How can I do that in a way that prioritizes their expertise and makes them feel valued and isn't just like adding on an extra job for them to tell me about their fucking horrible shit, you know, I don't want to talk to someone about how trans I am you know, Google it like that sort of thing, like, like I, I think one of the hard parts is knowing how to put this stuff in action and one of the absolute key things is like, you need to know who you are and why you feel the way that you do, and you need to see the hard stuff that comes up from that and interrogate it.

And it's deeply, deeply uncomfortable, but you cannot skip that step,

[00:51:30] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Especially where you hold power and where you feel privileged.

[00:51:34] Egan Magee: Yeah. And think about your interactions with your colleagues. Definitely your colleagues, like you have to think about your colleagues as well as your clients.

Yes. If you are not working well with your colleagues, you are not working well with the people that you're seeing. When you really dig deep, how do you view your power? When you really dig deep, are you working from a place of seeing your client as the one that is the expert?

Are you working from a place of negotiation and negotiation is such a tricky word because it, it deeply implies coercion. Like, if I'm negotiating with you, I am trying to draw you to a middle space where you can agree, that is really different from hearing you and working with you where you're at.

And these things that seem like tiny little nuanced pieces, like they all stack up to the bigger picture. And that is how you get to a place where you actually can say that you are trauma informed or you're working from a decolonized point of view, because those are really nice words, but you have to, you have to know what they mean and you have to be able to say, this is how it applies to me and actually have something meaningful to say.

[00:52:38] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Yes. Yeah. That work is never done. We are not speaking from this high horse of being like, yes, we are, we are decolonized and we're going to teach you how to decolonize. Like, we are settlers and, um, we are the recipients of unjust privilege and power in this colony.

[00:53:02] Egan Magee: Also, like, when you, when you do that work, when you mess it up, it becomes so much easier to deal with it. Yes. Because the more you know who you are, the more you understand that you're fallible. Yes. And when you inevitably make a mistake, which you absolutely will, which we do all the time and we will continue to do forever, um, it means that you have more of a framework to be like, oh, shit.

That thing. Yeah. This, this part of me overstepped that time. This is a thing to be aware of. How can I work that in and integrate it? Yes. Whereas when you're, when you're in a space where you are blind to the different parts of you, when you make a mistake or something, it is going to feel absolutely crushing.

It will make you feel like you are the worst practitioner and you should never do anything again. Or it will make you go the other way where you'll be like, well, whatever my client is XYZ and that's why it's a problem. It's them. It's not me. And like neither of those situations are constructive at all.

But if you can really build a picture of who you are, it means that you have both the things that are challenging, but you also have the things that are really, really good. And those things will come together in those moments of conflict and stress to make you be like, okay, I can work through this.

[00:54:24] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: You see why I wanted him to come.

[00:54:27] Maddison Stratten: I do. And I really do feel like that is like the practical, you know, the, the final thoughts of this whole conversation around what it is that we could be doing and how we could be implementing it in our own work, which is so diverse and so broad. Was there any key takeaways around mutual aid and community to highlight for our audience, anything that we really need to embrace the discussion today and, yeah.

[00:54:53] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Well, I wrote myself a note referencing, um, Adrienne Maree Brown. I would say, go read Adrienne Marie Brown, go read Emergent Strategy. Go read Marcus Syrus Ware wrote an incredible book that's actually directed for young folks, um, called Abolition Is Love. Those are really great, great resources to pull from, um, around this this topic. I think something that I would expand on from Adrienne Maree Brown is that it can feel really frightening to betray your role in colonial violence, to betray your role as an agent of, of power and colonial violence.

But like, being a thorn, being a thorn in the system side and being, a gate opener, wherever possible to, to draw on what she says about biomimicry and you know, if we look at how ecology or, or like the natural world adapts and responds and, and acts of resistance, like being a thorn in the system sides means that we can grow around it in creative and new ways and find each other in creative and new ways.

It doesn't mean that, you know you're just being difficult. It's actually building something around it, the possibility of doing things differently. Um, yeah.

[00:56:24] Egan Magee: I would add, the only thing I would add to that is, um, there is a video that's on YouTube. Uh, it would be a few years old now. Um, it was just when Dean Spade's book came out, Dean Spade Mutual Aid. They did, as part of the book launch, there was a conversation between Dean Spade and Mia Mingus, and I think it's like an hour and a half or something, um, but it is the most beautiful meandering conversation about mutual aid and abolition and how these things are inherently together.

And it's just these two powerful, incredible minds just bouncing off of each other. And I, yeah, I would listen to it every day until I died. It's also like deeply, deeply, um, uh, accessible for anyone who's not familiar with either of those concepts as well.

Yeah. Two very friendly people.

[00:57:17] Maddison Stratten: Great.

[00:57:19] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Do we have room for, do we have time for the question? I really, I really liked your last question about like, who inspires us and what we're listening and reading to.

[00:57:29] Maddison Stratten: Yes, please. Tell us who it is.

[00:57:33] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Okay, cool, cool, cool. Okay, well, because I want to say what Egan said before, which is that the people who shoulder me up and inspire me and in this work are like, my awesome clients and my solidarity team and my community, um, especially queer and trans people of colour and First Nations people who are working in care and community spaces and roles and doing their best to do justice within oppressive institutions while also surviving the colony. Solidarity team people, including Egan, Sekna, my collaborators.

Um, I'm reading, I want to say I'm reading, Tian Zhang, um, who is one of my collaborators wrote an incredible piece called A Manifesto for Radical Care or How To Be A Human In The Arts. Um, to be fair, I am rereading that.

It's not new to me, but I just love it. Um, The Value of Experiential Learning And Lived Experience with an OT Training co authored by one Mr. Egan McGee very recently. Baby's first published article. Um, and Sweatshop has a new anthology out now called Povo and it is incredible. Get it, get it at any cost, get it from Sweatshop, get it where, get, I think maybe Gleebooks also sells it.

Um, but the, the first story is it'll, it'll get you and keep you from there. So

[00:59:20] Maddison Stratten: There's some really good ones in there that we haven't already got on our What We're Reading library, which is on our website. But we also recently launched a Goodreads account and a heap of stuff into our Goodreads. So we can add some of those in there for, for our audience to keep track of as well.

[00:59:38] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Gonna spam you.

[00:59:39] Maddison Stratten: Yeah exactly.

Thank you so much. It's been such an honor and a real privilege to have you both On The Couch it's been really special and, and lots of takeaways. So thanks very much.

[00:59:51] Egan Magee: Thanks so much, Maddy.

[00:59:52] Danyelle Mei Kaplan: Thank you so much.

[00:59:57] Jennifer Farinella: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook, where you can share On The Couch with your colleagues, friends, and family. On The Couch is made by Jennifer Farinella, Naomi Viret, Maddy Stratten, and Winnie Adamson.

Until next time, peace, love, and protection.