On The Couch with TransHub

[00:00:00] Jennifer Farinella: Hello, and welcome to an episode of On the Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter.

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[00:00:56] Naomi Viret: We're so honoured and excited to have Sophie from TransHub join us On The Couch. Sophie is a Community Health Promotion Officer with ACON in the Trans Health Equity Team. Whose role involves working on the Peer Resilience Building Workshops, the program Trans Vitality, and adding to resources on Trans Hub, or assisting with ACON's other trans programs. Thank you so much for joining us this morning, Sophie.

[00:01:24] Sophie: Thank you, Naomi. So today we're talking about the trans experience, and I just wanted to note that, this is an experience that's unique to individuals, which makes today just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding. So it's not just some passing fad as some people refer it to. Um, we'll explore what it means to be trans, what gender reaffirmation is and how we all do it, how to be an ally. And ultimately we'll explore how you can help trans people with the challenges and barriers of a society that's built on the belief that there are two genders, and we must live as the one written on our birth certificates. And an important point to remember is that while I'm happy to answer these questions, it's my job. So the trans people in your lives might not want to answer all your questions and there are heaps of resources out there like TransHub.org.au

[00:02:13] Naomi Viret: Nice promo grab. I love it. And I think you're really right, and I think that that's what we will uncover as we have these discussions is that everyone's experience is really unique and that some people are more willing to discuss their experience than others. And we need to be really mindful of respecting peoples choice around that.

So I think it's a really, you know, start at the very beginning, what a really good place to start. And perhaps if we can start by defining some of the terms that we hear quite commonly used around this transgendered experience.

So what does it mean for somebody to be transgender?

[00:02:47] Sophie: Um, a trans person, and this is just the definition because it's so much more than this, but it is, when you have, um, a gender on your birth certificate assigned at birth, that is different to how you live your life and who you are. And so, for instance, at birth, you might be given an F by the doctor, and then maybe later on you realize you would have been happier with an M or an X.

And, the whole time you had to live your life as a woman because of the gender binary between male and female that we live in, it's the way our whole society is built up. And so if it's uncomfortable or not who you are, you might repress it, or you might change how you live, you might change your birth certificate, you might change how you dress, you might take hormones, alter your body in other ways.

There are just so many ways of affirming your gender and being who you are, but ultimately the definition of trans just comes down to having that difference. And so that includes, all forms of gender diversity as well. So if you are non binary, that is a different experience to what was on your birth certificate, because it would be binary.

So I don't feel like it should be such a big deal, but it's, it's It seems so rigid and there's just so much, restriction and hesitation put on people around these things. So as a non binary person, I don't feel comfortable in gendered spaces, but they're everywhere. And everyone assumes you're either male or female.

And because of that, everyone is constantly judging each other and trying to guess whether someone's male or female. And like I do this too. Um, it's as if there's a computer in my head that decides what gender people are and it tries to assign pronouns and, you'll hear it. Everyone who's worked in hospitality with like sirs or ma'ams it's a similar thing.

How do you decide those things? Um, and so sometimes I think we have to actively think about those things. But I just wanted to have the binary in front of our heads when we're going through this.

[00:04:49] Naomi Viret: Absolutely. And I think you raised such an interesting point when it comes to the birth certificate things and around M and F. And I don't know the current legality, but I know that it's quite soon that a gender has to be assigned to a baby. Um, and that there does have to be a gender placed onto the birth certificate. And generally speaking, that's based on the anatomy that people see, but it doesn't even take into consideration the possibility that that infant is intersexed. And they may not know that until they start going through puberty. Right. So the impacts of what that actually means for people.

And I also like that you even spoke about your own biases when it comes to trying to figure out like what gender people are aligning with, or, um, are they non binary it's, it's there for all of us.

And I think there is that sort of subconscious. And we just need to be really mindful of that as well. And I love that you raised that because I feel like we all have our own biases. And it's about recognising that and acknowledging it to be able to then be more accepting and move forward.

So when we talk about the transgender experience in Australia, do we know how much of the population actually identifying as trans?

[00:05:57] Sophie: It's, it's really tricky. Um, it's, it's hard to, to count trans people. And if anyone remembers the last census, you'll realise how many problems we've had with, large surveys counting trans people. Often trans people are erased, but, um, three percent of Australia is an estimate, but people in the closet aren't counted.

People who, uh, don't want to be publicly trans aren't counted. It's, it's an estimate but we're out there.

[00:06:29] Naomi Viret: Absolutely. And I think, you know, one of the things is that we probably have all had interactions with a trans person and we may not have even realized. And I think that's when it comes down to, and I know that you address this in some of the questions in a moment, and it's like, how much does it actually matter?

Like if we're working with a person as a person, does their gender even matter? And I think that, yeah, we've probably come across trans people without even necessarily realizing it. And, um, that I agree with you, there's probably a greater percentage of trans within the community, but we don't necessarily have statistics that are available to us. And, I know that even the marriage equality debate had a really big impact on the trans community because whilst it was a win, for their friends and peers. It wasn't necessarily a win for them personally and I know that that was a big thing around the last census as well and what that meant too.

So I guess moving into thinking about what's the difference say between gender and sexual orientation, like, do those things come into play when we're talking about the trans experience?

[00:07:31] Sophie: It can, but also gender is more just how we act, dress, behave, and how we fit into a society that has two genders, essentially. Um, and so it's how we interact with each other, and then how people who don't fall into those two genders express themselves and live. And that's where gender lies. And sexual orientation is, who you want to have sex with and their gender.

It's not quite the same, and of course you can have asexual trans people. There are people who, don't experience, uh, sexual attraction that are trans. It's a totally separate aspect of our lives. Like, just as you can have, um, cis men and cis women with different. Sexual orientations. So can you deal with trans people?

[00:08:21] Naomi Viret: And since you've touched on the term cis are you able to explain that a little bit further for us, please?

[00:08:28] Sophie: Yes. Um, so a cisgender person is someone who has an experience that's aligned with the sex assigned on their birth certificate. So the opposite of trans. And it comes from the Latin, which I realized this morning would actually be kiss, like it's a hard C. I'm a big nerd, if it's not clear. And so, in Latin, um, in ancient Rome, there were the Cis Alpine and the Trans Alpine Gauls. So two populations of Gauls who lived on either side of the Swiss Alps. And the Romans said the Cis Alpine Gauls on this side, the Cis side, they're mates. The Trans Alpine Gauls, we're a bit suss on them, and the trans means across from, the cis means on this side. So trans people move across from their gender identity, cis people stay inside it, with what was assigned.

[00:09:15] Naomi Viret: That's an interesting history, isn't it? And to think where we got those terms from and that they've stuck even today, yeah.

[00:09:23] Sophie: Yeah.

[00:09:23] Naomi Viret: But when it comes back to the difference between gender and sexuality, a really good quote that I've heard is, " gender is who you go to bed as, and sexuality or orientation is who you go to bed with."

Is that something that you've heard before?

[00:09:36] Sophie: Yeah. Easy.

[00:09:37] Naomi Viret: That's a nice way to try and remember it, I think. Yeah.

So I think now it probably makes sense if we start to have a look at how it is that as professionals or peers, how it is that we can start to change some of our language to be more inclusive around the trans experience and trans clients or people who we may be engaging with in community.

And I know that one of the more common things when we talk about the trans experience is pronouns. So are you able to help step us through what pronouns are, how people assign them, how people use them, and I guess how we can start to become more familiar and comfortable ourselves in asking a person's pronoun and then using them.

[00:10:20] Sophie: Great. We're on a bit of a grammar kick, so, uh, pronoun is a word you substitute for someone's name. So he, she, they, we use it for animals, everything. It is another one. Um, we all use pronouns and we just kind of jump into them naturally on what we think someone's gender is most of the time. And the pronouns you use for a trans person, same as cis, it's whatever that person uses, whatever they want.

 Different people have different pronouns that represent them. I like they, them, you like she, her. Um, we figured that out by just politely talking about it. And so you can just simply ask someone what pronouns do you use and give yours first is a great way of doing it. Um, I think giving yours first and then asking is the politest. It feels it's like an invitation to share then.

[00:11:15] Naomi Viret: Yeah, I like it. And I like the fact that, as you mentioned, it takes that assumption out of things as well. Because, I mean, even if, um, you know, somebody is presenting themselves as a particular gender, that may not be the pronoun that they associate with either.

I really liked the way that you say, by introducing yourself and sharing your own pronoun with that person, it invites that it's a safe space to be able to share that pronoun back. And it's definitely one of the questions that we get asked more commonly is in terms of how do we ask those pronouns and then, you know, making sure that we use them.

But also what happens if we slip up and we make a mistake? What should we do?

[00:11:54] Sophie: Um, apologize and move on as quickly and gracefully as you can, I think. The best thing to do is just return to what you were talking about after acknowledging that you slip up. Because if you slip up and then you're like, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm new to this, and then start giving reasons, it becomes a whole thing. And it might be a big occurrence for you because you often may be very good with pronouns and you care a lot about these things.

And so then you slip up and you feel really bad, but for the trans person they probably get misgendered all the time. They don't want to focus on it. So it's just about moving on, respecting and, yeah, it takes practice.

[00:12:34] Naomi Viret: Yeah, I agree. I think the more that you just develop it into your everyday language and practice it, the easier it becomes.

And what if we're unsure of how somebody will react to being asked that question? Is that something that we should be aware of. Is it really a non issue?

[00:12:51] Sophie: It's been a non issue for me, but I don't know if that's, if that's because I'm a trans person asking, um, it feels pretty routine for me. I've had some people be not sure how to describe themselves, but, and just be like, Oh, I don't know what pronouns are using. It's like, mate, you use he, it's okay.

Um, and. Most of the time it's been fine though. It's, it's, it feels like a non issue. It's, it feels like admin, you know, it's like social admin.

[00:13:25] Naomi Viret: I like that term social admin, we're going to have to use that more often, I think. Um, and so I guess there's been different like terms throughout history when referring to someone whose gender doesn't necessarily align with what's on their birth certificate. And is trans now the preferred term? Like how have we kind of arrived at that?

[00:13:44] Sophie: Um, well, there isn't one preferred term. It's the big disclaimer, um, different communities and being trans is a human experience. So it's all across the world. So there are, of course, ways of talking about it outside of English. But, what we use at TransHub is an inclusive trans, so we say that anyone who's got a different gender to what they were assigned at birth, be they men, women, non binary, genderqueer, agender, anything that fits under that, um, they're trans. Also , it's an adjective. So you can say a trans person, but you cannot say a trans. And, um, similarly with transgender. So, A transgender person, a cisgender person. If you're just talking about a transgender, that's not using an adjective correctly, and I'll deduct marks.

[00:14:30] Naomi Viret: And also that the term transgendered is outdated and no longer used. Is that correct?

[00:14:35] Sophie: Yes. Uh, yes, that one doesn't quite work and I haven't seen it in a while. And some people describe themselves as transsexual, but it's also, um, I think because of its medical and pathologized history, it's a bit out of fashion, but certainly looking back at, um, anything involving the trans community from say the nineties, you'll, you kind of see some words that are definitely not okay to say now.

So it has moved on a lot, but trans. Trans is easy.

[00:15:07] Naomi Viret: Nice. And again, I think, you know, going to those resources such as TransHub, I have no doubt that there's fact sheets up there around pronouns and language that Transhub consider acceptable and commonly used within communities. I think that those resources are a really great place to start for anyone interested in looking to change up their language and be more inclusive in just the language that they're using, um, in both their professional and personal lives.

So one of the things that we hear of is the term of gender dysphoria or body dysphoria. Are you able to elaborate on that a little bit more for us and what that kind of refers to as part of the experience?

[00:15:47] Sophie: Sure. So dysphoria is like discomfort. It's the opposite of euphoria. So that kind of made me realize what it means. So euphoria, you're super happy. Dysphoria, you feel crap.

[00:15:59] Naomi Viret: You're not aligning.

[00:15:59] Sophie: Exactly. And so when you're gender dysphoria is when you feel discomfort in your gender because it doesn't align with your experience, maybe. Who you are internally doesn't match how people treat you. And then that can create this sense of discomfort. Um, Because of the very medicalized way that trans people have been treated, in the West for the last hundred years, um, there are a lot of medical terms and gender dysphoria was one of the diagnoses that was used to originally help trans people, but I think we've moved away from it, and we're no longer seeing trans people as different or needing cures.

So, gender dysphoria is a thing and people do experience it, and it can be diagnosed, but it's not essential to being trans. Not every trans person has it and it goes away as you affirm yourself, hopefully.

[00:16:58] Naomi Viret: That's great. And I think the key there, um, that you touched on Sophie is that it is such a unique and different experience for everybody.

And I really want to come back to that. Cause that was one of the first statements that you made was this is an individual experience. So no two people are going to have the same experience of being trans and even in terms of that process for them. So I really like that you say just because dysphoria may be a part of somebody's story, it doesn't mean that it's a part of everybody's story and that, um, some people may have those concerns around dysphoria, whereas for other people, it's just not a concern. It is an individual experience, but do you think it depends on the level of support or, um, encouragement that they have around them as opposed to if they feel affirmed within their gender and experienced dysphoria or not? Or it's hard to say?

[00:17:42] Sophie: I don't think I would say it's too individual, um, because some people, uh. I remember talking to someone who said that even if they were on a desert Island and didn't have to deal with anyone, they would still feel dysphoria. But for some people it is enough to be mirrored in that as long as people understand who they are then they get to experience that euphoria instead.

Um, and I guess this comes into all the different ways that trans people affirm themselves. We're all looking for euphoria, I guess.

[00:18:09] Naomi Viret: Yeah, I really like that. That's a nice way to sum it up and to speak about how, you know, people start affirming, which brings us really nicely into some of these next questions, and it's really some of these processes and, you know, working through things and definitely how as community members and workers, we can start to become allies and really support somebody's experience, um, through this transitioning process.

Um, I'm just like noticing in your answers, there's a fun fact. Do you want to read out your fun fact?

[00:18:41] Sophie: Oh, yes. Um,

[00:18:42] Naomi Viret: I like it. We have to share it.

[00:18:44] Sophie: So throwing back to when we were talking about ancient Rome, there was a Roman emperor, Elagabalus, um, who, would dress as a woman and said they would pay a physician any amount of money to give them a vagina. Um, that emperor also, I think, had a boyfriend who was a chariot driver and gave them a government position. Sounds like they were terrible at being an emperor, but I, I, I get them. They make sense to me.

[00:19:11] Naomi Viret: Put trans into the history books and like you say, it's across history and everywhere. I often think about that when you have a look at relics from like Greece and Rome and Egypt, like diverse sexuality and gender has been there ever since the beginning of time.

And I think we really need to reflect on that because, it's not something that just, you know, has started to happen. It's been there throughout history.

[00:19:31] Sophie: Yeah. Throughout history, across cultures. And yeah, shout out in particular to Brotherboys and Sistergirls in Australia.

[00:19:39] Naomi Viret: Beautiful. Thanks, Sophie. How and when do people realize they're trans?

[00:19:46] Sophie: It can happen at any age and I feel like everyone has a totally different story of what made it click. But I think you don't need to have that sort of childhood experience where you're just, you know, like weren't allowed to wear dresses and just wanted to wear pink or something like that. You, you see that one a lot, especially in like the 2000s, that was a big one. But you don't have to have a specific narrative where you didn't fit into your gender your whole life. Like maybe, It seemed okay or something like that, or you just wanted to change, but people change.

So a lot of the reason why people don't realize or express that they're trans is because of a fear of people being hostile or abandoning them, be friends, siblings, parents, spouses, children, workplaces, and sadly that does happen. It's a very real fear. Even if I think a lot of times when people come out, it's just like, well, why didn't you trust me with this? It's, but it's because of all the negative messaging in society about it.

As for how people realize they're trans, it depends. Um, I would realize I was trans when a therapist asked me if there was anything I hadn't done because I was worried it would be imperfect. And I was like, Oh, there's this thing that I thought I would just not be able to do forever. And then realizing that I could do it my way, that was enough.

[00:21:12] Naomi Viret: And what a powerful question. It's sort of like that miracle question, you know, like if you can wake up tomorrow and everything was changed and perfect, what would it look like?

Thank you very much for sharing your own personal experience around that and acknowledging that it is such a different experience for everybody. And, you know, it's not textbook, is it? And I think that's what we really need to be thinking of, that there's no right or wrong way to do this trans experience and that it is different for everybody. And that there's no timeline that we have to reach these things by, that it is a process that we all work through in our own time and our own way.

[00:21:44] Sophie: And there is no destination either. So, like gender fluid people, for instance, have a constantly shifting relationship with their gender. And it's just about, accepting yourself and who you are and how you want to present yourself. I think.

[00:21:59] Naomi Viret: I really like that. Thank you.

Um, Is there a right time for someone to start to transition, like if they've identified themselves as trans and maybe even talk us through the transition process or what that means to be transitioning?

[00:22:15] Sophie: Oh, there is no right time or the right time is whenever, um, the person feels ready to affirm their gender. Um, and this can, this is like a constant calculation. I'm always doing risk assessments in my head of like, how publicly trans can I be when I'm going from A to B. So the way I change how I affirm my gender depends on my safety. And I think that, It's quite micro, but it applies to people's whole lives too.

So you might not feel safe, until you're 45, or you might feel safe when you're 20, and then think, no, now's not the right time. And you come back to it . And that's partly why in TransHub, we talk about affirmation rather than transition, because it seems like in transition, you've got an A and a B, you're like a caterpillar to a butterfly. And that's some people's story. There are lots of trans people who love butterflies for that reason. But we talk about affirmation because it's just about the actions, the things that you do. And they're not going to a specific place or direction. It's not about becoming a man or becoming a woman or anything like that, it's just about changing your. social, medical, or legal affirmation to match who you are. And so those are the three aspects we think about.

So social affirmation is names, pronouns, clothes, how people treat you, how people refer to you in their relationships, things like that, like boyfriend, girlfriend, that's social affirmation.

Legal affirmation would be changing your birth certificate or changing your name and medical affirmation would be, gender affirming hormones or surgeries. Yeah, mostly just those two.

[00:24:02] Naomi Viret: Thanks for that, cause, um, well in terms of gender affirmation and thinking about it, it's an umbrella term too. That it's not just one particular thing, and I really like how you've broken it down into those three elements. And I'm assuming that it's possible for somebody to have affirmation in one element, but not in the others. Is that correct?

[00:24:20] Sophie: Oh, absolutely. Some of that can be down to accessibility. Like someone might want to affirm their gender in all three ways, but can't access a GP to give them hormones or can't afford surgery. Um, or they might not do the social affirmation because they don't feel safe or they're just not interested in it. There are all these different ways of approaching it.

I like to think about them as like a menu. There are tools and you can just pick whichever one suits you. So it might be wearing different clothes, it might be a haircut, it might be telling one person, that this is who you are and you would like to be referred to as this, or it might be doing none of that and just doing it all secretly. There's all sorts of different ways of approaching it, but Transhub is really good on this, and that's where that breakdown into medical, social, and legal has come from.

[00:25:08] Naomi Viret: Excellent. So yeah, TransHub. org. au for those of you following along. Um, but I really like how you've broken it down. And again, it just, you know, reaffirms the fact that there's no right or wrong way to do this, that it is so individualized and it is, really specific to the individual. And I guess it also, it probably depends a little bit on geographical location too, does it, in terms of access to services.

[00:25:32] Sophie: Yeah, absolutely.

 In regional New South Wales, it's harder to access services. Um, there are fewer trans affirming GPs or maybe there's just one or two and you might have to drive a bit or they've got long wait times. TransHub does have a gender affirming doctor list for doctors in New South Wales. So if you are a doctor, please jump on there, or if you are looking for a gender affirming doctor, take a look there.

[00:26:00] Naomi Viret: Excellent. Thank you. And I guess just following along with the medical interventions, um, and the affirmations a little further, if that's okay. We often hear people refer to passing, and do you still have to pass for a particular period to be able to then start some of the medical interventions?

[00:26:21] Sophie: Um,

I don't love passing because the idea of passing is that trans people have to hide that they're trans and when you pass, you just look like a cis person and particularly as a non binary person, there isn't really a way I can look where people will be like, Oh, they use they/them pronouns. Like it doesn't work for me.

[00:26:45] Naomi Viret: Yeah.

[00:26:46] Sophie: Um, and when I used binary pronouns, it was just totally random what people would use with me. Like, um, so I don't think I've, I don't really relate to passing and I think it can also set up some, it's also based on beauty standards that are racist, fat phobic, um, that's a whole other webinar.

[00:27:10] Naomi Viret: I think we had those discussions the other day about, you know, that it's insta perfect.

And what does that, it's all BS like for everybody.

[00:27:17] Sophie: Just quickly though, I think there is something in the guidelines about encouraging people to live or do social affirmation before pursuing medical affirmation. Um, but the guidelines and it's different for everyone and some people prefer to do medical affirmation and then like once they feel comfortable in their body, then have a social affirmation. I think it all depends on who you are.

[00:27:43] Naomi Viret: Yeah. Nice. Different ways of looking at things. So in regards to surgery, some people refer to top surgery or to bottom surgery. Are you able to elaborate on that a little bit for us?

[00:27:57] Sophie: Sure, so, top surgery is anything on the chest. So removing or producing or increasing breasts. Um, cis people definitely get these surgeries, and bottom surgery refers to anything on your junk. So vaginoplasty, making a vagina, phalloplasty, making a penis, orchiectomy, removing testicles. There are, there are so many different kinds and each one of those has different variations. And not everyone gets surgery either because they can't afford it or don't want it.

[00:28:26] Naomi Viret: And I really like that as a summary that, you know, you don't have to have that surgery to finalize anything, that it's not about anatomy. I suppose it's more about, um, your psychological thoughts and feelings as opposed to physical presentation. And that, again, it is quite expensive and we often hear about people going overseas for those surgeries. Is there support in Australia for those surgeries under Medicare or anything that we're aware of, or?

[00:28:51] Sophie: Um, most of them you have to go privately. Um, I think there are exceptions to that, but almost all of them, especially bottom surgery, because it's, so much more intensive is all private system.

[00:29:03] Naomi Viret: Yeah.

[00:29:04] Sophie: Yeah. It's not great. And there are very limited number of surgeons and.

[00:29:08] Naomi Viret: And I can imagine it's quite complicated surgery too.

Like when we think about those areas, there's so many nerves and things like that.

[00:29:15] Sophie: Yeah. I wouldn't try it myself.

I think it's more of a skill situation. Yeah, I'm not a surgeon.

[00:29:28] Naomi Viret: And also the terms tucking and binding, they're two terms that we hear quite often when somebody is trying to affirm gender, what are they referring to?

[00:29:36] Sophie: Um, so the two different things, tucking is when you tuck your penis between your legs and wear really tight undies or something like that in order to hide the bulge. And binding is using a tape or a really tight top, like a binder to compress the chest and reduce the profile of breasts. They're both forms of gender affirmation and not everyone does them or wants to do them.

They may have physiological or medical reasons not to, and also they probably don't call them breasts if their binding. But some people do. It's chest is a nice gender neutral.

[00:30:05] Naomi Viret: Yeah. I was just thinking, what would the term be chest if that makes sense? And I think that's important too, when it comes to language around medical care and that's something, I think particularly medical professionals need to be really mindful of, the trans experience and thinking about, you know, is it a person with a uterus? And do they therefore still require things like pap smears or, um, you know, we would be talking about chest or breast checks in everybody anyway, like, um, breast cancer can occur in males as well as females.

So, but it's just those terminologies and things to be mindful of too.

 I want to move into some perceptions and I guess some kind of myth facty kind of stuff or perceptions that are out there in the community that aren't necessarily the actual experience.

So a bit of a hard hitting one, but we know that it's happening.

Why do we feel that society gives people who don't follow gender norms such a hard time?

[00:30:58] Sophie: Easy. Um, yeah, I, I, I struggle with this one. I don't really have a good answer. if you want to understand transphobia, ask a transphobe. But also don't talk to them. Um, but I think like the way I've come to understand it is that people build their identities on, as much on who they aren't as well as who they are.

And so for some people, the idea that you can change who you are, and it's not just decided by your genitals could be really confronting. And so if that person is allowed to change their gender. What does it mean for my gender? Do I still have a gender? And I, I, I dunno, that's my guess at what the crisis is, but I'm, I'm really speculating.

[00:31:43] Naomi Viret: And I think often, I mean, we talk about the stigma and discrimination, and I think a lot of the times it comes from a place of fear or unknown of the other. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, because that's not my experience, I fear that experience, or I have an unknown around that experience. And therefore that's where some of the stigma or discrimination might come into it. Shall we just say that, you know, if you can be anything in the world, just be kind and if we bring it back to more a humanitarian experience and treating a person as a person, then I think we're probably off to a really good start.

[00:32:15] Sophie: Yeah. And it's acknowledging body autonomy and that, the way someone refers themselves usually doesn't matter to how you give them care. I don't think as long as you respect them.

[00:32:26] Naomi Viret: Absolutely. And that actually the way that somebody else identifies often doesn't personally impact you anyway. Like it's none of your damn business.

[00:32:34] Sophie: Yes, exactly.

[00:32:35] Naomi Viret: That's your choice, and actually, how is that impacting on my life? Knowing that thing about you or that that's your experience? It actually doesn't. So what's the issue? Um, and I guess. You know, you touched on before the fact that this isn't a fad and that some people would say, Oh, you know, there's so many more trans people these days, but actually is there?

[00:32:55] Sophie: I don't think so. And because you could, partly because you can see trans people peppered throughout history and across cultures, but there's also the notion of survivorship bias. So there are more left handed people now, and that's because we don't force everyone to be right handed. Not because of some weird conspiracy to assault right handed people or something.

[00:33:15] Naomi Viret: Yeah.

[00:33:16] Sophie: There was a thing about left handed people being like more sinister and like just evil. I remember some real wild stuff, but anyway, there are more trans people because, there's more solidarity, there's more support for being trans, and there's more visibility, so it feels safer to come out, um, which I think is wonderful, and I hope we can keep it up as a society, because, yeah, it is a survivorship thing.

[00:33:43] Naomi Viret: Yeah, and I think that just, you know, I definitely feel that there is more of a shift around the accepting of diverse genders and sexuality and starting to see, more pansexualism and just like, I'm in love with you or I like you because of who you are, not what you are. So there seems to be a little bit more acceptance around that diversity. And I truly hope that, that continues and we see more of that because I think that's, yeah, that's where the safety and acceptance and things like that come into it.

 I'm sure you've heard lots of misconceptions over your time, both professionally and personally, but I wonder from a professional point of view, if you are able to maybe shine some light on some of the common misconceptions that might be out there around, um, trans men and women?

[00:34:29] Sophie: Um, there are just so many misconceptions. I think some of the big ones are just around making assumptions around how trans people, particularly how trans people have sex, as in that I've heard things about, um, trans people being really promiscuous or totally not, like all the stereotypes contradict as well. And about who they have sex with, but, you can be straight and trans, you can be queer and trans, you can be anything and trans, so I think it's just about not making assumptions about someone's identity is all you need to do. And if you don't focus and worry about what genitals someone has, I think you'll probably respect them a bit more as a person and you won't be so focused on what's unusual and you can just focus on helping them and understanding that person.

And so, if you find yourself wondering, like, this person is trans, what does that mean about them? I think just like sit and reflect on why you think it's going to be so different. Because there are, trans people need different forms of respect and affirmation to cis people, but we all need very similar care.

We all need respect

[00:35:49] Naomi Viret: yeah. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Like it's respect and kindness regardless. Right. But do you feel like society, and I guess some of these misconceptions it's just so much focus on genitalia and therefore it kind of sexualizes it more and that's not necessarily the case.

Like you sort of touched on that going, well, you know, this, um, misconception that there's so much sexual promiscuity within the trans community, but actually it's like cis community, there'll be sexually promiscuous people and there'll be asexual people or people just don't have sex at all, and that's no different to the trans experience.

So.

[00:36:23] Sophie: And cis and trans people have sex together. So. Yeah, you can't, you can't make assumptions about it. Um, I think one assumption that I, I would like to get publicly out is that like, not every trans person watches Drag Race.

[00:36:37] Naomi Viret: Why not?

[00:36:37] Sophie: Just haven't, but I've had a lot of people who try and connect with me around it.

[00:36:43] Naomi Viret: I think that's really interesting from having read, um, Shane Jenek or Courtney Act's book, um, recently is that, you know, not everybody that dresses in drag wants to have that trans experience and that it has shifted and changed over time.

And I really like, when we first met and started talking, we spoke about, Disclosure on Netflix, which I watched, and I guess what really struck me was how trans people have been represented by media over time.

[00:37:10] Sophie: So it's a 2020 documentary about the representation of trans people and in particular trans women, I think because of the trans misogyny that has pervaded Hollywood for 70 years or something. And so it goes through a history of how trans people have been portrayed and the ways that. trans people have been kind of made into jokes or villains, and it is just an all star cast of just some of the most talented trans people picking it apart.

It's, it's a real pleasure, it's really eye opening, and it's just kind of beautifully done. So, I'm a big fan. And it's really important to see that, this is not a new issue. There have been trans people, trans actors and trans representations, but a lot of them have been really horrible.

[00:37:59] Naomi Viret: And that's what I really took away from it.

And that you touched on was that whilst it has been portrayed in movies and things like that for a long time, that a lot of the time it was sort of almost done in jest, like it was done for comedy value. Do you feel like it was a bit, maybe dehumanizing at that stage?

[00:38:17] Sophie: Absolutely. And you think about the other side of it, which is not just like a joke, but also that trans people, violent people like Norman Bates in Psycho, um, puts on a dress that shows he's a weird serial killer. Like there is this direct connection between being trans and being a murderer in film, which is not a thing.

We have no data on trans people being more murderous. I does not seem that way. Citation needed.

[00:38:49] Naomi Viret: Yeah, yeah, but a really interesting documentary, it was really, um, quite insightful and definitely gave me a different perception on how trans people have been, I guess, portrayed given those years and that while some of those experiences are still true to today, I'm so glad that there's been so much more progress around how people are represented, um, within community and media. So yeah, definite positives to take away from that.

 So I guess, um the way that we addressed asking about pronouns before, but wanting to know somebody's gender identity, um, but don't want to be offensive about it. Is there a polite way to ask someone around their gender identity?

[00:39:28] Sophie: Um, not that I really know, I feel like most of the time, why do you want to know, especially in service provision? Um, I would challenge everyone to think about why, what they're asking about. Um, how will your service be different if you know that this person is, male, female, and non binary. Do you actually want to know if they have a cervix or not? Do you want to know what their pronouns are?

So I think, think through the actual practical things that you need rather than asking, are you a boy or a girl? So break it down into what you actually need to provide, because most of the time, like a dentist doesn't need to know if I'm a man, woman, or non binary, they need to look at my teeth. Like they need to be able to say my name, talk about me in a way that makes me feel like a person and then that's it. Um, so I think I would just hesitate before asking. Why do you need to know?

[00:40:25] Naomi Viret: Yeah. And I think that's, that's the trouble with society, isn't it? Not only do we assume lots of things, but also really curious. And we feel like we've got a right to know the answer. And actually, no, you don't. Actually, it'd be, like I say, if it means nothing to the service that you're offering, why is it even an important question to ask, or why's it something that you'd be wanting to know.?

So yeah, thinking about it from, I guess, that medical care point of view makes sense, but otherwise just keep your curiosity at bay and, um, yeah. See the person as a person. I like it.

 I think it's really important for us to end at looking on how we as in our professional, but also our personal capacity can be allies to trans community, because I think that's where we're going to see real growth and real change. And at the end of the day, that's where that respect and kindness and humanitarianism is going to come from. So what's it mean to be an ally to community?

[00:41:16] Sophie: Um, well, I think everyone being here and being willing to listen and join in. That's a great step in being an ally. Um, I think being an ally is just about showing up for and supporting and advocating for trans people, even when there aren't trans people in the room. It's about taking it on yourself to make sure that your workplace, your service, the people in your life, feel safe and understands that you support trans people. And a lot of that can be through simple actions, for instance, respecting pronouns or educating yourself, or there can be very discreet, obvious times where you have to like step in and help someone.

Like that you see something happening on a bus, like a trans person being harassed or something like that. That's an opportunity to be an ally. And I just want to also mention that marginalised groups experience a lot of discrimination at once, and there are intersectionalities. So, um, there's homophobia, there's biphobia, there's racism, there's ableism, and when all of those intersect, there can be quite horrible discrimination.

And so I think being a trans ally is not just being an ally to trans people. It's about appreciating all the ways in which, people face discrimination and fighting it. It's, yeah, to me, it's about justice.

[00:42:47] Jennifer Farinella: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook, where you can share On The Couch with your colleagues, friends, and family. On The Couch is made by Jennifer Farinella, Naomi Viret, Maddy Stratten, and Winnie Adamson.

Until next time, peace, love, and protection.