On The Couch with Liz Dore & Jan McGuire from Relationships & Private Stuff

[00:00:00] Jennifer Farinella: Hello and welcome to an episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter. This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal Country. We acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work and record upon.

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While listening, we encourage you to practice good self care. Check the show notes for content details and references.

Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, enjoy this episode of On The Couch.

[00:00:34] Naomi Viret: My name is Naomi Viret and we are joined by Liz Dore and Jan McGuire from Relationships and Private Stuff to discuss sex and relationships for people with a disability. .

There's not a lot that we can discuss in an hour and this is really just the tip of the iceberg. So I'll kick off this morning by introducing Jan and Liz.

So Liz has been working with people to help them achieve their educational, employment and personal goals, for over 25 years. With more than 15 years experience in providing training in relationships and sexuality to people with a disability, also their family members and support staff . This includes 10 years experience in counselling and education. The focus of her counselling has been to support clients, develop meaningful relationships and a positive awareness of their sexuality.

Jan has been working with Relationships and Private Stuff since 2011. Initially in an administration role and volunteering at events. This, over time, led to Jan becoming the centre manager and now provides counselling. In her role as centre manager, she has spoken with many clients, families, support workers, as well as Department of Community and Justice and police.

As a parent of a person with a disability who is navigating and managing the NDIS funding system themselves, you can recognise that Jan is a very experienced person in this field as well. Jan is also a support worker at the Lotus Project in Adelaide, working in day programs for adults, kids, weekend programs, and in home support and short term accommodation options.

So, Liz, you've been working with people with a disability for quite some time now, and your work is helping to achieve their educational, employment and personal goals. The main focus of your counseling has been to support the clients to develop meaningful relationships and develop positive awareness around their sexuality.

Are you able to tell us what got you into this field of work and what it is that's driving you to do this work on a daily basis?

[00:02:41] Liz Dore: I had an uncle with Down syndrome. So that was probably the beginning of my experience. I then was a school teacher and, um, Had that experience of a range of children, but, within that there were children with disabilities. So I went back and did special education, and then, you know, one thing leads to another and you move for different reasons like love and, And there's not a special education job.

So I got a group home job and worked with adults with disability. So I started seeing the whole range and, um, that moved on to employment and community integration, which was finding out what someone was passionate about, which is still a key and finding a group where they could join other people, and meet that the need for people in their lives. Um, if they love singing, it was finding a choir, which I still recommend. So it can increase people's friendship circle.

[00:03:47] Naomi Viret: And Jan, how about yourself? You've worked along Liz for quite some time now. Are you able to share with us your passion and what it is that has brought you to this role?

[00:03:57] Jan McGuire: Um, it wasn't something I ever expected. I came into this quite late in life.

I had a corporate and hairdressing background before that, but, um, through working with Liz, a bit like her, I started to develop an understanding of the different needs and areas that were lacking, you know, for our clients and the support that they need and. And I guess I used to have a level of sympathy for people with disability, but not really having a level of empathy where you understand what it might be like to be in their shoes. You know, sympathy is not really enough. Um, it tends to come from a place of feeling pity for someone and I don't think that's how we should approach our clients. They, they deserve rich, rewarding lives like we all hope to achieve. So, yeah, that's how my journey sort of went from doing a little bit of volunteer work to gradually moving along to counselling and now I'm doing that down in Adelaide.

I'm just trying to spread that knowledge a little bit more.

[00:04:57] Naomi Viret: Excellent. It's so good to hear and I really liked that point that you made Jan around the difference between sympathy and empathy when it comes to working with our clients who may be experiencing disability and it's all many ranges and forms.

So, Jan, I'd like to continue on with yourself. We understand that one of the main areas of concern that you come across in the work that you're doing regularly. Despite coming from a really genuine place of caring, families and carers often don't fully understand a client's rights and helping them to achieve their goals, I guess, particularly when it comes to that of relationships.

[00:05:35] Naomi Viret: Are you able to elaborate on that a little bit more? How it is that they can be supporting the person in their care to achieve those outcomes?

[00:05:43] Jan McGuire: Sure. I think that the biggest trap that, people who support people with disability fall into is being overprotective. You know, throughout a child's life, we have to make a lot of decisions on their behalf, you know, make the choices for them, and it can be a little bit hard to let go.

Because as you said, we're genuinely caring about them, and we're concerned about their welfare, and we're worried about that big, scary world out there, but I think we really need to allow them the opportunities to make choices for themselves, become more autonomous, um, rather than us doing everything for them so that they can truly be as independent as possible.

You know, I, I recognize that they'll always need a level of support, most clients, but what that level of support or how that support's delivered can be quite different to that sort of trap we fall into of just overprotecting.

[00:06:37] Naomi Viret: Mm.

As you mentioned, that sometimes there's that miscommunication about what the person's needs might be, or that overprotection, and obviously that causes a lot of stress for everybody involved. Are there examples that you can think of? Where those, um, the stresses or not being able to provide a person with the information and being overprotective have potentially then led to behaviours, particularly around their sexual expression that are perhaps seen as undesirable behaviours?

[00:07:09] Jan McGuire: Um, yeah, you know, when I say overprotection, a lot of that revolves around actually not giving our clients the knowledge they need to understand behaviours and what's acceptable. Or what's, what's legal? Unfortunately, as you mentioned before, I often speak to police in the Department of Communities and Justice, and that's because somebody hasn't been given that education and knowledge and has found themselves in a pretty tricky situation where they might have exposed themselves in public or, you know, not understood consent, um, areas like that. And they find themselves in quite a bit of hot water and what we try to do is prevent that from happening in the first place and I think it's really important to, to give these, I'll say kids, you know, because it sort of starts back early, um, give them that education and knowledge and, and recognize that they are going to have sexual desires, they will want to form relationships. They might want to get married and have children one day and we can't just bury our heads in the sand and think that that's not going to happen, you know, and then when it does happen, it usually, comes out all in the wrong way, you know.

[00:08:21] Naomi Viret: Yeah, and I really like that, that Jan, you refer back to that importance of that education and from a young age and I can imagine that in some instances that can be difficult for families or carers to provide the information in an age or stage relevant way and think what is it that they're going to actually do with this information.

So, I'd like to move on now to talking about parents and carers and how we're able to support those roles. Liz, it makes sense that parents and carers are often overwhelmed with these discussions.

Um, I, I can imagine that when, you know, puberty hits, it's sort of almost that sense of, oh no, here we go again. Like we just felt we'd gotten on top of things and now we throw hormones into the mix and sexual thoughts and desires.

[00:09:06] Naomi Viret: How is it that parents can best educate or carers can best educate, um, the people in their care, particularly when it comes to their personal development and then moving into relationships and thinking about sexual health?

[00:09:20] Liz Dore: What helps is thinking about the development and it is a bit harder because other children just pick it up or at school, they get enough information. They also know where to get information, which is why Family Planning have developed some good resources. And when I worked there, I was able to connect the issues that were happening with my clients to the need for some resources. So Family Planning is a good place to start because if you want to talk about puberty, and then it's got resources that you can use. So the body parts really it's essential that they know them. What if someone actually touches their penis or their vagina, they actually need to know mum and dad aren't going to shy away from them using the real words.

And the public and the private is so important. And if someone's on a bus and is attracted to feet, or sees a young woman with the low neck top and, um, then his penis is going to stand up in his pants, it's just a reality.

And for the other young teenagers, they know to cross their legs, put their bag on their, on, on top of their pants to cover it up or think about something else. They just usually get that, but we actually need to teach that, um, when you go through puberty, you're going to have sexy feelings. Your penis is going to stand up, or if you're a girl, then you're going to get tingly feelings.

So where can you touch yourself? Well, that's when you talk about public and private. And you don't really want them putting their hands down their pants when they feel aroused at school. So it's better not to say, stop that, stop that. It's better to say not here. You can do that at home.

And so if they're having a really pleasant time in their bedroom and they're, you know, ejaculating in their bedroom after they've had wet dreams, then they're less likely to do it at school on the bus because, hey, if they've, if they've done it the night before or that morning, then that's going to relax them.

[00:11:40] Naomi Viret: Great strategies, Liz. Again, it's not saying no, stop it. That's not okay. It's just saying not in this context, but it's okay in your private spaces and encouraging that, which is great. Thanks so much, Liz.

Jan, often when it comes to themes around sex and sexual health and also relationships, parents or carers might lose sight of who the client actually is.

And I suppose I'm thinking a lot here about potentially carers in group home environments, for example. Um, Do you have any advice for carers to help them manage the divide that might exist between the client's needs and desires and what the family's values are or what it is that they would like for the person who they're related to?

[00:12:26] Jan McGuire: Sure. It's really important to remember who the client is here. That, that's the main focus, um, particularly as a support worker. You need to advocate for your client and that could be difficult if the family has different values to the client's values. You know, you think about it when kids grow up, they quite often reflect their parents values and beliefs and everything and then as they get a little bit older, they start to question that and develop their own values and beliefs and they can often be very different to what the parents want and wish for their child and believe. You know, for example, in the area of homosexuality, things like that, you know, that can be quite an issue and I think with support workers, they do need to advocate for their client, but along the way, they also need to listen to the family and their concerns and not alienate them from the process. The family is usually, and not in all cases, but usually a big part of the client's life as well. And to help them understand that you're not just encouraging the client to just go off and do things dangerously and just do whatever they like, but that you're trying to educate them and give them knowledge to make those informed, healthy choices, that sit well with their values and it can be difficult at times. We come across it all the time in our service, but it's something that you have to keep reminding yourself of who the client is and who you're really working for, you know, NDIS is funding the client, not the parents and we, and we want those clients to, you know, have rich full lives that reflect what they want, what their values are so, but you can't alienate the parents and just say, well, this is how it is.

[00:14:08] Naomi Viret: Yeah,

[00:14:08] Jan McGuire: that's that's not fair either.

[00:14:10] Naomi Viret: And I think what I'm really getting from what you're saying there, Jan, is it's about communication. It's about everybody being on the same page and communicating the needs of the person and, you know, understanding how everybody is feeling about it, but trying to mutually come to some type of agreement.

Do you have any advice to the clients themselves in how they might be able to bring up these conversations with their carers or with their family members?

[00:14:34] Jan McGuire: Just be straight up with it. You know, say this is what I'm feeling, this is what I want. How can I make this happen? When you set goals, there's steps to those goals. Usually it's not just a case of just going straight there. So you really need to sit down with them and be honest with them about how you're feeling. And also, as the client, recognize how your family might feel about it as well and try and understand why they feel that way, but try and be strong and use your support worker to support you in getting there. Communication, communication, communication.

[00:15:11] Naomi Viret: Absolutely. Great advice. Thank you so much, Jan. I know that there's some terms that we quite often use, which are duty of care that the carer or parent may have versus dignity of risk.

Are you able to explain the difference between those two terms for us and why it's so important when we're working in this field?

[00:15:29] Jan McGuire: Sure. Um, I mean, I imagine most people listening know what duty of care means. Um, and we kind of, in a way, we say dignity of care versus weighing that up against dignity of risk and dignity of risk is allowing a person to look at a situation. Make some calculations, weigh up the pros and cons, weigh up the risks and look at different ways of, how can I make myself safer when I'm making these choices and allowing them to make those little mistakes along the way. You know, our kids without disability often get that opportunity to make little mistakes along the way and learn those life skills. We, we're not given a book when we're kids that says these are the life skills you need to know off you go. We learn it by making mistakes. And allowing our clients that dignity of risk to make those mistakes is really actually a part of our duty of care.

So it's, it's almost not a versus thing, really. It's actually part of the duty that we have to our clients. So, yeah, just letting them learn from those little mistakes, but giving them the knowledge, so they're not big mistakes that hugely impact their life or put them in dangerous situations.

[00:16:42] Naomi Viret: I really like that example that, um, that really helps.

Thank you. And I think it comes down to, as you say, again, it's providing that information. We're always coming from a harm minimization perspective. And so it's how can we minimize the harm that may be involved in these behaviors and allowing those opportunities. Because I know that a lot of people, particularly in group homes, for example, or, they have support workers come into the home, they often feel like there's not a lot of private time, that there's always somebody else around.

And so finding moments where they can have those private times in the bathroom or the bedroom become really important as well. And so, like you said before, not overprotecting, but giving really good opportunities of time. Windows of time where those things can be explored and taking a harm minimization approach.

I really like it. Thank you.

[00:17:32] Jan McGuire: Particularly when, when, um, when you look at parents, you know, we're all ageing and there will come a time when you're not there to protect your child. And that's going to leave them very vulnerable if you don't give them those life skills.

[00:17:45] Naomi Viret: Yes, I agree. And I think that's true of everybody, not just clients with disability too.

Yeah. So Liz, in terms of the over protection of the client, and I guess particularly when it comes to sex education, talking about sexuality and relationships, it can end up leaving the client very vulnerable to sexually transmissible infections, unplanned pregnancy, and potential sexual abuse. Are you able to elaborate on that a little bit more and perhaps provide some information on ways that we can encourage this education so that we're potentially avoiding these undesirable effects from happening?

[00:18:21] Liz Dore: Well, education is power and I think the biology and the social need to be taught at the same time. So you're teaching the body parts and where you can touch yourself and masturbation, um, which the others are doing, as I said before, and, allowing someone to have lube in the bedroom is not going to make them masturbate more, it's just going to make it more pleasurable and teach them that that's the place to do it. And then if you're doing the social skills side by side and letting them make friends and joining groups. As I said before, then, you know, if there's two that get on really well at the choir, then they could exchange phone numbers.

If they're nonverbal, they could. It's pretty obvious to see which ones like each other. So if they're nonverbal, then the staff or the family can help them, go out to the park and, you know, do just walk around, look at the pond and the ducks and stuff and observe how they're interacting. Um, if one is touching the other too much in public, then it's a sign that that person's attracted but it's also a teachable moment.

And that's where I, why I teach the difference between strangers and then also acquaintances. So once you've been to that group or activity, you're not girlfriend, boyfriend, you're just acquaintances. So you just know their name. You're not boyfriend, girlfriend yet. But at that group, you could become friends so that if they learn the difference between these steps and also this is a fairly simple way of teaching them to ask each other questions and to take in turns.

So if you teach that socially, then hopefully they form an intimate relationship, they'll also be, you know, taking in turns to talk about what they want. Um, and I have had clients ring someone too much, but then I've talked to them and shown them. And once they get the understanding that if they ring more often, it's harassment, then they get the, the turn taking.

Um, there's also, if they're going on a date, then public places, is ideal, you know, a staff member or mum or dad could sit outside the cafe and they could go in so they actually get a bit of privacy and, learning to pay half the bill means that you don't owe that guy anything if he keeps paying. So I always think having your own key card, is a safety that you're teaching right and In the beginning. They, you know, they might want to kiss in the park, but if not the park, it's, it's an environment that you need to support them. And if that's their home, and there's a room, a lounge room where you can just leave them be, then that would be really good.

I've been working with two people who met at a workshop, and they've been through the process of changing phone numbers. Their families are so supportive that it's lovely to see that they have supported them with the dating, and now they are visiting each other's homes, and initially that was during the day, so they gave them the space to do that, and I think that really helps with those dating steps. And then at the same time, you're, moving along with the sexuality and talking about consent and do they really want a baby? And then that's when I talk about contraception.

It's illegal to have a person sterilized without their consent. And now there's Implanon, which some of my clients are on or the pill, but they need to see all of those options and doctors have them in a kit as Family Planning is a great place to go because they've learned how to show that kit to people with disability.

[00:22:36] Naomi Viret: Excellent. Some really great tips and advice there, Liz. And I think, you know, the popularity increasing on shows with your “Dateables”, for example, and we've seen the series “Love On The Spectrum”. It's really helping to normalize that within society, too, that, you know, you may see people out on dates and how great it is that we've been able to encourage and empower those people to be able to share those experiences.

It's the same as their peers, which I just think is such a wonderful thing. Just to expand on that a little further and moving into talking about education and the experiences of some of the clients that you've seen. Sadly, we do know that people who experience, particularly an intellectual disability, experience more abuse, but also anxiety and depression, particularly when it comes to things like dating and being in relationships.

Are you able to expand on that a little bit more and just, I guess, give us a bit of a heads up as to why it is that this group of people in particular might be more, um, at risk of abuse or harassment?

[00:23:41] Liz Dore: If somebody's lonely, then that's going to make them more vulnerable because, if a staff member or someone, you know, leading the choir or, um, if that person wants to touch a person with a disability that's lonely, then they could be taken advantage of.

But if you've helped someone, have these sort of relationships, they're more likely to go. No, I've got a boyfriend or even, the information about, stop, uh, go away. And I get, my clients in a workshop to actually stand up out of your seat.

And if someone's trying to touch you and you don't like it, you say, no, go away. So if it happens, wherever it happens, but people with disabilities are often told to sit down, , keep quiet. If they've been told to sit down and keep quiet, then how are they going to stand up for themselves? And with the knowledge, you hope that they know, oops, this is a touching and I don't like it.

[00:24:50] Naomi Viret: And I think you touched on a really interesting point there, Liz, around the compliance. So that people with disability, a lot of the time will say yes to things because of that compliance.

And that often then becomes an issue when it comes to this unwanted sexual touch or, um, you know, when it comes to talking about consent and I don't like that particular behavior.

[00:25:10] Liz Dore: And also, people with disabilities are also same sex attracted. And again, that's something that needs to be acknowledged. Um, and they have the right to a same sex attracted relationships and I've had clients that have them, but if they're not allowed to have those, and again, they could be taken advantage of.

So I think it is good to let them join groups that are for same sex attracted people.

[00:25:40] Naomi Viret: Excellent. Really good advice. Thank you. And we sort of touched on it and I really like how you've given some examples of how people can be supported in entering into these meaningful relationships and particularly intimate ones.

Is there any other tips or tricks that you'd like to give around engaging with like minded others or how they might go about starting a relationship and particularly looking for an intimate relationship? If that's what they're after.

[00:26:07] Liz Dore: Well, as I said before, I think it's really important to join an interest group.

So if you like singing, find a choir and, and if you go each week, you will start getting to know the people in the choir and you'll make friends. And that can turn out to be, um, meeting up on the weekend. And, that could, uh, one day it could be a relationship or it might just be a friendship.

One guy collects matchbox cars, and I wasn't sure about that, but apparently there's hobby groups for everyone who collects so I'm now encouraging him to find a matchbox car hobby group. And so that I'd strongly recommend, but also making sure you've got the education around, sex, consent and safe sex so that if you get to that point after the dating that you're aware the other person might want sex before you and that's important to talk about. I'm just ready for kisses and hugs at the moment and let's stay in the lounge room.

[00:27:18] Naomi Viret: Jan, I know that you spoke before about people wanting their autonomy and we see that a lot in areas of things like study, employment, living independently and you mentioned about setting goals for clients to work towards. Are you able to explain a little bit more in terms of autonomy around these relationships and particularly expressing those sexual thoughts, feelings and desires and what a goal might look like for a client, just as an example?

[00:27:48] Jan McGuire: Yeah, I think as I said before, achieving a goal usually involves smaller goals sometimes goals can be way too vague and I often think it's good to write them down and actually ask yourself certain questions. Be specific about the goal, is it measurable, is it achievable? And so on. But also question what the potential obstacles are and what those solutions might be to that and who can help you with that. So I think you know, with a lot of our clients, it's good to use visual tools so that it's just easier for them to absorb and retain. Otherwise it can be a bit airy fairy, you know, like, Oh, I want to give up smoking. Yeah, but how am I actually going to do that? Maybe setting yourself a bit of a timeline to as to when you hope to achieve it, when you're going to start it, how often you're going to do this practice.

[00:28:38] Naomi Viret: Excellent. And that delayed gratification can be very difficult for people. That's a great reminder for all of us, I think, that instant gratification doesn't always happen we've got to be patient really .

Um, I think it's a really nice time for us to have a chat about the experience you've had in your TV program, The Dateables, Liz, and really being able to set up safe environments for young people in particular, to start these social connections with a view to dating and with a view to intimate relationships. And I know that over your many years of experience working with clients, you've obviously seen situations where providing the information and education has been done really well and other situations where potentially it hasn't been done so well and therefore it may have led to more negative consequences for the client.

Are you able to share some experiences, to give some examples about how this can be done really well and what not to do in providing this education and information?

[00:29:44] Liz Dore: Well, as I said, it's important to do both, at the same time, the relationships and the sexuality and just think back to your own experiences. As Jan said, the timeline is important. I actually do that visually. So, with photos or on a big art pad where I asked them what they want in the future and then you can actually put those other photos or drawings in between. Um, so they don't think they can just get married this year, and I have had the experience of people dating and then it not going anywhere, a couple being engaged and then breaking up.

And then as you'll hear from the short film, a couple that have been together over 10 years. And then more recently, a couple who've only been going out for four to six months and are so in love. And that's really lovely to see. So all of these experiences they're exciting. But don't think just because one couple breaks up that that's it. Or one guy's too controlling. Use it as a teachable moment and talk about well, at least you picked that he was the wrong person, or now you know a bit about what you're looking for and use it to move forward and go back to the friendship phase. So you're not using it as a negative thing.

[00:31:13] Naomi Viret: Yeah. I really like you coming back to that term teachable moment. So just a little bit more in terms of being able to provide some resources or tips for both clients and carers parents. Jan, how is it that carers can best equip themselves to talk about things like, body parts, sex and other private stuff. When we speak about that education as power, how do we give that power and control back to the clients around their sexuality and letting them know that it's okay, for example, to masturbate, but in a private space. Is there any additional resources other than what's already been discussed that you might recommend or suggest?

[00:31:53] Jan McGuire: Well, visual resources, I think is so important and not just talking. frequently my go to when it comes to relationships and sex is the Family Planning resources. They have an awful lot online in New South Wales that are, disability related designed specifically for that community.

Um, but they have their Sex, Safe and Fun Guide and there's a support person's guide there too, to help you navigate how to deliver the information. It's very easy English, simple pictures, know good sex can be fun, it can be by yourself, it can be in a private place and so on. They then look at bad sex and, you know, playing with yourself in public is against the law, for example, sexual harassment is against the law and so on.

Um, they've got very simple resources about how to put on a condom and how important it is to tear the packet open rather, you know, from the, on the zigzag side, rather than with your teeth, you risk breaking the condom. All those types of things.

When it comes to relationships, I found this guide particularly useful because it does go through those steps of relationships and explains the different types of relationships, the skills, how to form your relationships, how to grow them.

And, and as Liz was saying before, you know, you might join a group and meet somebody, you might become friends, you might become more romantically involved, but often it's through those friends that you meet other friends and so on, and then you meet the person you're going to fall in love with. It's not always going to be in that group, but through those common interests, you're meeting like minded people.

So, I think the combination of that practical experience and then backing it up with tools is really valuable. And I encourage people to just google, it's amazing what is out there. Shine SA have resources as well, which is kind of Family Planning in South Australia.

So just get online and, and have a look at what's around. But I would recommend some of the ones by um, Family Planning and Shine and places like that because that's their main focus.

[00:33:58] Naomi Viret: Yeah, excellent. Thanks so much Jan.

So, Liz, just to touch on some of the terminology, because I know that we spoke about sometimes the language that we use is really important around this. So, instead of saying things are wrong, dirty, disgusting, no, don't do that. Are you able to give us some language that's really positive that we can use in this space and that we can take away from today and start practicing?

[00:34:22] Liz Dore: Well, I think it's important to use the correct names, but also the nicknames. And as I was saying before, being really specific about what you're allowed to do, which is similar to others. So you don't touch your penis or your dick when we're in the car, you wait till you're at home in your bedroom, close the door.

So just use the language that other people are and find out what they're using. I mean, dick was what they called it when I was at school, but find out whatever name they're using now, and, and use those. So they know you're comfortable. And so if someone touches it, they know to tell you. So I just give them the, the positive messages around what other people their age should be doing.

[00:35:06] Jan McGuire: And I would say, don't use those kind of baby names that, you know, those sort of silly names that people like to use sometimes for things because if a person is trying to tell someone that someone's touched them inappropriately, it's really handy that they can be specific. So you know exactly what they mean. But again, as Liz said, also, you know, combine that with the, the more sort of casual terminology that we use, like dick and balls and words like that. But I think it is really important that they know the proper names.

[00:35:36] Naomi Viret: Yeah, 100%. And I think if we just take a sex positive approach and , everybody has sexual thoughts, feelings and desires and has a right to be able to explore that.

And so if we come back to that sex positive language, providing education as empowerment to therefore reduce the harm that may be associated with some of these behaviors. We're already taking really good steps in the right direction to being able to support [00:36:00] these people in our lives. So I think that's really important.

I think one of the last things that I'd just like to touch really quickly on Liz and Jan is that the NDIS or the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Has now been out for a number of years and there are ways that the system has been able to support people with a disability and exploring relationships and sexual health.

Are you able just to give a quick heads up as to how that scheme has supported people with disability around those topics and what it is that clients or carers may be able to look into to support their sexual needs?

[00:36:35] Liz Dore: Well, there's a number of things starting with support workers, helping them meet people and make friends and then there's funding available for them to attend group workshops on friendship and relationship skills. And that way they can practice. And then there's the one on one sexuality sessions where the quiz or assessment is done to work out how much they know. So NDIS covers each of those and then they'll cover the sessions for the education.

NDIS now also covers sex work, so for those people who wanted that it's better to actually put it on the agenda and talk about it, rather than them just find a massage parlor that doesn't know how to work with people with disability. You want, if you're going to see a sex worker, that sex worker to know exactly how to ask someone for consent and, also to realize that it is being a paid service and that NDIS paid for it, not a free girlfriend experience.

[00:37:42] Jan McGuire: And also, NDIS provide funding so that people like us can also see the support people around the client, to give them the education and strategies to support what we're doing with the client. So we don't just see clients. We encourage, the families to get involved, the support workers to get involved and, show them the resources they can use and, and the strategies they can use to help the client and support them to their best, rather than just, because we only see the client for an hour, a fortnight, maybe, or whatever, they're there the rest of the time.

[00:38:12] Naomi Viret: And I think you really touched on a good point there, Jan, because again, it comes down to that communication, doesn't it, and having that multi pronged approach and having all significant parties of that person's life being involved in those decisions and coming to a mutual agreement that's best for the client's needs to be met.

I know that Liz would like to end today's session with a beautiful video and share that with us. You might want to give a little bit of an intro to the video, Liz.

[00:38:37] Liz Dore: I want to show you the short one with the couple that have been together for over 10 years. A young person wanted to film it for their major work, which led to an ABC segment. So I'll do that now and thanks for being a part of it.

[00:38:53] Actor: What do you think about when you think of the word love?

Oh, love. Okay, love is, oh wait, actually, love is in the air.

[00:39:01] Liz Dore: People with disabilities have the same range of emotions as everybody else. People on the autism spectrum struggle to express it, but they still experience it. The Dateables Ball was to give people with disability a chance to meet other people, to make friends, and hopefully find their match.

[00:39:20] Actor: Dances have been terrific. She always enjoys getting dressed up, and putting the makeup on, and working out what outfit she's gonna wear weeks before it's on. Yeah. Love is love, isn't it? It doesn't have boundaries. It doesn't, you know, have color or creed or shape or size or, so if she falls in love, she's got every right to, to marry and, and, and live her own independent life.

[00:39:41] Liz Dore: I've worked with people that are depressed or sad or angry, but I've also worked with people who have met someone and the excitement and the endorphins, that's priceless that someone can get that through a relationship.

[00:39:56] Actor: One thing I noticed on that occasion, when the day we discovered we couldn't marry each other, is that I fell even more in love with her. Yes, and I think that's beautiful.

[00:40:10] Liz Dore: Well, after doing the education with people years ago, I realized that some of them were coming from the same organizations, like some people from Jewish Care or some people from Participate Australia or Anglicare.

So if they came together, that was a good opportunity, but I thought The Dateables Dance was a good way for them to meet a whole range of people and similar to what other people do. So I came up with the idea of The Dateables Dance and both the workshops for meeting people and the dance has been really popular.

Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

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On The Couch is made by Jennifer Farinella, Naomi Viret, Maddy Stratten and Winnie Adamson.

Until next time, peace, love and protection.