On The Couch with Kirli Saunders
[00:00:10] Jennifer Farinella: Hello and welcome to an episode of On the Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter. This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We Acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work and record upon.
We pay our respects to Elders past and present and to those who may be visiting our website or listening to our podcasts today.
While listening, we encourage you to practice good self care. Check the show notes for content details and references.
Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, enjoy this episode of On The Couch.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners are advised that this episode contains the name of and discussion around a deceased person, words, descriptions and terms which may be culturally sensitive and reflect the views of those at the time in which the content was created.
[00:00:44] Maddy Stratten: I think it's really important to recognize that we're all joining today with diverse personal and professional experiences. So please practice good self care. Grab a cuppa, get comfy, sit back and enjoy this hour of your day dedicated to Aboriginal language, health, the queer space, while we discuss the importance of empathy in the work that we do.
I would like to welcome our guest joining me on the couch, Kirli Saunders. Kirli is a proud Gunai woman and award winning multidisciplinary artist and consultant. Kirli was both the New South Wales Aboriginal Woman of the Year and awarded the Order of Australian Medal for her contribution to the arts, particularly in literature. It is an honor to sit down with Kirli On The Couch today. Welcome, Kirli.
[00:01:33] Kirli Saunders: Oh, Didjurigura. Thank you. I Acknowledge that I'm also on Dharawal land today.
I pay my respect to Elders and Ancestors, past and present. And, yeah, extend that love and gratitude to those people for caring for country for all times. Um, and to all of us joining from Dharawal, Wangal, Yuin. Um, there's so many communities that we're tuning in from today. So hi everyone.
Um, and I wanted to add to that as well, just to say Mads, um, I advocate for community care too. I think there's this idea of self care in the Western world. And I think we, when we healing, when we're caring for our communities, um, we're doing so in community with community. So this week, we have the memorial for my Aunty Velma Mulcahy who.
Um, big Gundungurra elder and, I just want to, wanted to acknowledge the passing of her, but also the celebration of her life and the way that that feeling was done in unity, in community. So, um, yes, find your comfy space on the couch.
Come join us. But if you need to chat with people afterwards, um, if you need to reach out to your safe people, please do so because that's important too.
[00:02:44] Maddy Stratten: Absolutely. And I love the idea of community care as well as self care. I'm going to use that and I'm going to remember you saying that every time I use that.
I have to say your bio is so impressive. And, for those who are online, probably already know that, but that was actually just the short version. I had a long version, but, but I thought I'll just say the short version, because actually I would love to dive into hearing a little bit more of a personal introduction from you, Kirli, can you start off with, introducing yourself and I guess your cultural connections, love to hear it.
[00:03:19] Kirli Saunders: Thank you. Yeah. So, um, I was born on Gundungurra country, Gundungurra. Um, on my gran's side of the family, we are Gunai people from East Gippsland in Victoria. So down that way, we're Stephens and Boldens and Clarks.
And, um, I send my love and respect to mob down in Victoria at the moment because I know that we are dealing with big floods. So, um, thinking of you, holding you today, um, in our thoughts. Um, and then mum was born on Yuin country. So. Gunai lines married up into Yuin lines down around Bermagui and Bega, and down that way were Hoskins, so, um, mum was removed from Yuin Country, raised on Gundungurra Country, which we have tied through on my grandfather's side, um, so that way were the Stephens, um, And the Amado line as well from Dharawal Country, they, they married him, um, down on Coolangatta, so it ties down to Rosie, if you're out that way.
Um, and then on my pop side where Biripi people married into La Pa and moved into La Pa at the mish down at La Perouse there. So, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a lot of connections across many, many countries. Um, and it's also a treat because it means that I have community ties across many communities. And I have stories to hold and share with many people and language and land to, um, to connect to and be strengthened by and to, um, to fight for.
So, yeah, I, I feel really lucky to be yarning with you today about those connections and to, um, to have those ties.
[00:04:47] Maddy Stratten: Can you share a little bit more about what makes you proud? And I think we've started to feel that passion from you already. What makes you proud to be an Aboriginal woman and why it's so important to speak up and have voice?
[00:05:00] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. Well, I mean, We come from a 60, 000 year, you know, plus time immemorial kind of lineage. So, um, I think there's a pride in being part of the oldest continuous culture on the planet. I think there's also a deep pride instilled familiarly. So my mum is this super powerhouse, resilient, you know, beautiful moves with grace in the world kind of woman.
And knowing that I'm hers, that makes me feel really proud. And I feel strengthened by culture and by kin and country and having those relationships makes me feel a communal reciprocity, which I think is what we're talking about when we say pride for blackfellas because, um, I think pride white way can feel like this i'm out the front, you know, whereas I think there's a non hierarchical way of being in our communities. That's really important to, to honour. And to talk about when we're talking about pride. So yeah, I, I stand on the shoulders of giants, all these beautiful elders who've come before me and I get to learn from them every day and, and, uh, to teach our little ones.
And I think those relationships, um make me feel really strong and connected, and that's what I interpret here as pride. Um, I'm a storyteller, so my aim is to create, to connect, to make change, and that takes many forms. This morning I was sitting out in my garden on the phone, having a yarn with my friend up in Brissie, and making all these cyanotypes, so, um, sunprints using chemicals that rely on the UV exposure of the sun, and layering all these natural objects, mostly lyrebird feathers I was playing with today.
I did see that on Instagram.
It was so, so beautiful. So, um, I think when I'm in, in that space of storytelling, um, I feel empowered to draw people into those connections and, and that feels important. And, um, that has to do with, with Pride for me as well that I have been given the gift of storytelling. I feel a responsibility and so many of my elders have spoken about that responsibility.
So pride is intermingled with responsibility, with reciprocity, with non hierarchical ways of being and, um, with country and culture and kin. And, um, yeah, they all feel important in, in that idea of pride.
[00:07:17] Maddy Stratten: And I love hearing, you talk about, I've heard you on another webinar actually talk about your exceptional mum.
So I love that she got a mention today too.
[00:07:25] Kirli Saunders: And so does my dad too, right? But like mum's the black one doing all the great stuff at the moment. She does. Like, yeah, she's, she's this backbone and not just for her kids, but for many kids and for many people. And, um, yeah, she's real special.
[00:07:39] Maddy Stratten: Powerhouse. Yeah.
Yeah. I think before we get into start talking about your work, and we've kind of already started talking about those defining moments in your life, and I guess shows how broad and across the country, your cultural connections are. But what would you say today, like in this moment, when you think about it, is your most defining moment in your life?
Huge question. But, but just today might be a different moment tomorrow.
[00:08:09] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, I think, um. On the weekend when Aunty Val, at Aunty Val's memorial, we'd organise dances, my brother boys from down Yuin Way, they're Browns and, and Friars, um, to come up the coast and to teach my little ones dance, my cousins, my baby cousins, nieces and nephews, and our broader community, the kids particularly.
And so, yeah. I just think she would have had this beautiful glee in seeing all of these little people there celebrating her nephews, you know, during a smoking ceremony, her great nephews being involved in that, her nieces and great nieces dancing. I think she would have had pride in that. And so that feels like a very defining moment of a, um, continuous thing, continuing a legacy, but also. Seeing the ways that continuation happens in community, you know, there's like these, these beautiful ripples of knowledge handed down.
Yeah, that felt like a really defining moment, like a passing of the torch almost and the fire being held alight.
[00:09:14] Maddy Stratten: Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. I am, I'm so glad that you shared that actually, because sometimes we get straight into the work. And I think it's just nice to have a little bit of time at the beginning.
And I'm going to say right now that we're probably going to go over time a few minutes. Because I am not rushing this.
[00:09:35] Kirli Saunders: Time is a fluid thing.
[00:09:37] Maddy Stratten: What is time? Time is nothing. Everyone get comfortable because we're going to be here.
[00:09:43] Kirli Saunders: We're going to yarn, yeah.
[00:09:44] Maddy Stratten: Absolutely, absolutely. And I guess even prior to reaching out to have you join us On The Couch at Caddyshack, our team have been obsessed with your writing in particular for a while and we've been talking about it and putting it in our Caddyshack library and our book club discussions.
Can you talk a bit more about how writing has come about in your life? How did that happen?
[00:10:08] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, so, um, I had an excellent teacher in Year 11, Hayley Chisholm, if you're listening, you're amazing, thanks. Um, and she slid poetry across the table. I think she knew that poetry would be something that I liked and it was written by dead white guys, like war poetry and, explorer poetry, but it was, It was poetry that I fell in love with because I loved the rhythm and the lyricism and the trickery of it, there was all this wordplay.
And so I started writing and, um, created a work called The Incredible Freedom Machine, which is now a picture book. But at the time was a long form poem. And I was experiencing anxiety and depression at the time and then bought a motorbike and was riding up and down the coast. So this is like, you know, a few years in between riding up and down the coast and found so much joy in it and wrote about this, you know, kind of fiercely feminist moment of getting my motorbike license and riding and being free and independent in the world. Yeah. And I had written a manuscript and sent it off to Matt Ottley, who I didn't know. And said in an email, like, dear Matt, be my illustrator. He's illustrated like 75 books, he's amazing.
And, um, Matt sent it off to his publisher at Scholastic, Bec Young, who's a beautiful writer, go and read her work. And, um, yeah, it was, that was the start of my publishing. career. It, that started me in, in, in books and picture books. And I've always loved picture books. I studied teaching, so that felt really right.
And then Red Room Poetry, Dr. Tamryn Bennett over there, Jo Fetterstone and the crew, they supported me with my first commission of a poem. That was, yeah, that was, that was it. It's just been poetry ever since. And even if it's plays or essays or magazine articles, it's always poetry for me.
[00:11:57] Maddy Stratten: It's all poetry, yeah.
And you can see how it all links together, particularly with the art side of it too, and the visual art side of it, you can see how it all connects with the poetry and I can see you riding your motorbike in my head. I can see you riding your motorbike and I'm like yes girl get it.
[00:12:15] Kirli Saunders: Oh thanks.
[00:12:15] Maddy Stratten: I'm going to take a little bit of inspiration from you, but, don't worry, mum if you're listening, I will not buy a motorbike, but I will do something just as empowering I'm sure.
[00:12:26] Kirli Saunders: Excellent.
[00:12:27] Maddy Stratten: So I'm thinking about your body of work more broadly. Can you talk a little bit more about the intention behind your body of work, and I guess following on from that, your bodies of work are so broad, like you mentioned, you've got plays, and it's art, and it's poetry, and it's teaching, um, how do you find a balance?
How do you maintain a balance with all of that?
[00:12:50] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, I think some of it feels categorized in the kinds of works that I do. So, I guess my main three kind of places or spaces that I occupy are being an artist, being a writer, and being a consultant. Um, so in consulting, I work in diversity, equity, and inclusion, which I think of as belonging and justice and dignity. And I work with incredible teams, yeah, we work with all kinds of organizations from spaces in renewables and solar to fashion, to large multinational tech companies to support them in changing their direction or their, their strategies, their policies, their employment and engagement.
But mostly we just help them play nice. We teach people how to be. To create the spaces of belonging in their workplace. And so I feel like that part of me, that real justice oriented, change oriented self and the teacher who wants to work with adults gets to go and be alive over there, play over there.
Um, art for me feels like. A space I can occupy when I can't find the words, or when I want to sit in the expanse of the thing. So I love to yeah play with fiber. I love weaving. Cyanotype, so sun printing. Or UV printing. Printing itself and the mix of all of those things in digital space too.
I really enjoy all of that. And, um, Yeah. Yeah, I think that work for me comes about when, when I can't find a poem or, or when I'm responding to a poem, you know, and, and words feel, it's more the visual and the visceral that I wanna capture. And then there's writing and, I mentioned poems underpin everything, and they mostly talk about justice or hope or change.
Bindi talks about the bush fires, and eco grief. It explores eco grief for children and self-determination of moral being caring for country and the support of that, the need for things to change. Kindred is about my connection to culture and community and country and, was my debut poetry collection.
And I'm working on my second one at the moment, Returning, which is more about decolonization and feminism and indigeneity and queerness. So, um, this next collection is a bit more spicy and vulnerable.
[00:15:00] Maddy Stratten: Love that.
[00:15:01] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, and then, some works where there's, you know, essays or plays or poems and, they explore different things as well.
So the play Going Home is about actually taking their family home back to country after they've been separated from it because of forcible removal policies in Australia or because of, um, yeah, the shame of going home after that, the longstanding separation. disconnection from country, but also queerness, but also feminism.
Um, so yeah, there's the, I guess, the projection of my life and the wanting to create shared spaces of belonging in the world. So other people feel seen and heard and understood, but also, championing for change
[00:15:44] Maddy Stratten: I love the balance between when you talk about your poetry and maybe needing to express that visually and what a beautiful spring day to sit outside and do some, some art and inspire and, and you use your hands. It's like, I think there's something in getting away from the computer screen or away from the pen and paper and, and really getting into country.
And I mean, I'd love to speak more, I guess, now about language. So let's talk about language. Let's talk about its importance and its richness. We heard this week that from 2024 the Department of Education will formalize the inclusion of language in the curriculum.
[00:16:28] Kirli Saunders: It makes me thrilled to know that this is happening.
[00:16:31] Maddy Stratten: What a moment.
[00:16:33] Kirli Saunders: What a moment, right?
And I think this is off the back of the United Nations Indigenous Decade of Languages or Decade of Indigenous Languages. And off the championing of community continuously to fight for language to have a space in society in a way that it hasn't before. And, you know, Aunty Val would talk about or she would talk about how language wasn't allowed to be spoken when she grew up, you know, at La Pa on the mish and that her, um, yeah, that her nanny would speak language, but she wasn't allowed to. So, and my mum being removed, she hasn't been able to speak and learn language. And if she did, it would be Gundungurra, not her, her family's, you know, her gran side where she was born.
So I know that disconnection and, it's such a driver for my want to teach language in the classroom and, I created poetry in first languages with Red Room Poetry and across 12 different language groups. And I think 60 workshops, many, many, many kids, many communities. And it had elders sit with community with kids in the classroom, but outside. And kids would learn language through, yeah, dancing and painting and storytelling and, and walking on country and, um, with some incredible TOs and it was such a precious project to be a part of. And I just got to like sit back and watch it all unfold, you know, in this, this project management kind of role.
And, um, yeah, I think it really stood up the want for language to be a permanent part of the classroom and the curriculum. So I am thrilled about that.
[00:18:12] Maddy Stratten: Just this week it came out and I think I was reading that next year is going to be included, teachers can start planning with it.
And then the year after it's rolled out into classroom. And I just keep thinking in terms of identity and belonging and culture. I'm like, heck yes.
[00:18:26] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, that's it, right? Like there is a, I want to force home that we don't have to know our language to be black and that it doesn't have to be a part of identity that we're lacking if we don't know it.
Because I think I definitely felt that, but also I do feel like there's a way of understanding the land and connecting with other mob that is brought about by knowing your language. And I think that's a really beautiful, beautiful thing. So language comes from the land. Um, it comes from, you know, the shape of the land, the ripples of the land, the way the land moves, where they meet the rivers and the waterways.
And we only have language words for things that are important to country. So, I was traveling to Kimberley last year and in neighboring communities, there was a word for a medicine plant in one place, but in the very next clan, there wasn't a word for that. And I said, well, why is it that we don't use that here, but this mob here would travel through here.
So they would use that at different parts of the season, wet season, dry season. And, um, I thought that was fascinating for the balance that that would create in an ecosystem. Because if one community is not using that plant, the neighboring community is, there would always be an abundance of it.
So those kinds of Indigenous ways of knowing that are ingrained in language and in teaching and sharing of language, I think are paramount and so important. And, um, yeah, I, I'm excited that in knowing that those knowledges will be continued, um, revived, or regenerated, um, and that it will provide more paid employment pathways to mob to go and create work out of being who we are, having to fit into this, while we're being, which we've been doing for like 200 years.
[00:20:11] Maddy Stratten: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I'm thinking of myself as a non Indigenous kid in school, just coasting through school and just missing out on all of the richness of that language and the history and the story and the country and the connections with all of that and it's such a loss. And it's only really when you start to leave school and you're going, actually, I'm going to look into this a little bit more because there's something here I'm missing out on. And I want to be part of this because this is part of us as a country. Right? Like but yeah, I guess the other question that I actually had prepared to ask you, but I got distracted, um, is what does it mean to you being a 21st centurion custodian of language when we're talking about 250 Indigenous Australian languages? 800 dialect varieties spoken at the time of European colonization in 1788. Like, that is massive. Like, what does that mean to you, um, to be here and being a custodian of language?
[00:21:18] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. I think it comes with huge responsibility, you know, uh, and I keep going back to the passing of this elder, but, um, it feels really important at the moment.
And especially because I think across our communities, we know this a lot in recent years, we've lost elders and will continue to, and with them goes their knowledge and their wisdom. And the handing down of that knowledge and wisdom is so paramount in the continuation of it. And, yeah, my Aunty Val, she taught like once a week at her community centre, taught language to everybody.
Anybody was welcome, anybody who wanted to come. And so I think, you know, I look at that kind of generosity and the gaping hole that it leaves when someone like that passes and just feel a real need to, to be involved in that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:09] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. And to continue on her legacy, right? Like, you know, the work that she's done isn't for for nothing that it's going to continue on because of her family and her community and the knowledge that she's passed on throughout her life. So it's so important and I'm so grateful that you're able to share that experience.
[00:22:27] Kirli Saunders: Yes. Thank you. Very human life things are happening around me. I live in a share house and the lawnmowers have just arrived. So I'm just fixing my housemates, like make them mow out the back of the block and I'm just going to close the window, but I'm still here.
[00:22:41] Maddy Stratten: That's okay. I totally know what that feels like. I am very grateful today that my housemates are both working so, I'm on my own and I can be loud and not have to worry about sound.
[00:22:53] Kirli Saunders: Totally.
[00:22:55] Maddy Stratten: Um, so, I want to keep talking about language for a little bit because I want to move into a bit more of the queer space, but we've heard about Brotherboys, Sistergirls in Indigenous communities. Can you talk a little bit about how Indigenous language is used to express identity and inclusivity within sexuality and gender diverse communities?
[00:23:20] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, and I think this is part of an ongoing conversation that's unfolded, is there a word for they and them? and if there isn't, how do we amalgamate language or change language to make sure that there is.
And, I just think that's a, that to me is is so exciting that we can continue to shift language. And it's also a risk of language not having been taught for a hundred years, 200 years, 250 years, is that we might not have the language words to make sure that all of the identities that exist within a community are represented. So, um, yeah, if, if your identity isn't represented, I encourage you to go sit with community and have that yarn and see if there is a word or find a word that feels right. Or create that word because language is dynamic. It does change over time and it needs to be inclusive of the speakers who are telling the stories.
So, yeah, I just wanted to share that, that little sliver. Because, yeah I think more that we have that conversation, the more that we champion everyone of all genders or non genders being, seen and respected by language, then, yeah, the more safe that our communities will be.
[00:24:35] Maddy Stratten: And as well, I'm thinking historically, in terms of culture and language, those words existed. Right. Like, you know, Brotherboys and Sistergirls like we've, we've heard those and we can really kind of take our lead from Indigenous language in that space. And this is how we ensure that it is inclusive of all communities within that sexuality and gender diverse community.
I'd like to stick talking about, keep on, sorry, talking about the queer space. And I guess sexuality and gender diversity, if that's okay. I've heard you speak about it as feeling right, being authentically you, being true to yourself and I guess your creative work and art really being your self expression. You've talked about it being your vulnerability and kind of the openness of who you are, how is it for you walking in the world as a queer Aboriginal woman? Are you able to share?
[00:25:33] Kirli Saunders: I have a perceived straightness, around me, which comes with its own challenges because I want to shout from the rooftops like, I date women too, you know?
Um, and I think that's a really challenging thing. And, one thing about coming out, And having a yarn with lots of friends have also come out is that you're repeatedly coming out. You're always coming out to people and, be that in like a casual conversation in the lunchroom or, when you meet people for the first time or, um, yeah, when you say partner, they're like, but what's their gender?
There's this real kind of insidious expectation in our society that, straight is the mainstream and I think more and more we're seeing that the realities of our relationships and the statuses of those or our sexuality and how we choose to label or identify ourselves to other people and when it's safe to do so. If it's safe to do so, um, it's something that is continuously being kind of turned over um and yeah, it's, it's been, I'd like, I came out when I would, I'd just turned 30 or I was on my way to 30 and I sat down with mum and dad was like, guys, I think actually think I want to date women. I think this is part of who I am. And, um, they had different attitudes towards it.
Um, and I had friends who outwardly told me like, you know, you could just stay with your boyfriend and, and have sex with women. And I just was like, oh, you, you really don't understand, you know.
[00:27:07] Maddy Stratten: Not who I am.
[00:27:09] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. Or what I'm craving for or the connection I want in my life or, or the fullness of who I want to be Um, and it was really challenging and really sad and really hard at times, but it also came with this total elation of freedom of like, I validate who I am in the world and I know who I want to be and I know who I want to be with and what that looks like.
And that came with this absolute freedom to be me and I fought it for so long, you know, I, I, I just assumed I would live this, this straight life. Um, and that's a really, really hard thing.
[00:27:46] Maddy Stratten: Are you saying then Kirli that it wasn't a phase?
[00:27:49] Kirli Saunders: No, it wasn't a phase!
[00:27:51] Maddy Stratten: It wasn't just a phase? Oh, is that what you're saying?
[00:27:53] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. And I like, I really emphasize with, other people who are also, you know, dating Cishet men and who have perceived, straightness as well around them.
Because I think there is this like, oh, well, maybe it was just a phase and you've gone back into the closet. Um. And, and that's, that was just a moment of flipping the horizon of your life.
[00:28:14] Maddy Stratten: You can still be authentically yourself even when you're within a perceived straight relationship, right?
[00:28:23] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. I joked with Nan. I was like, Nan, I still like vulvas she's like, Oh my God.
[00:28:29] Maddy Stratten: Also, I love when you said vulva.
[00:28:30] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got to know the difference, right? Like, I think it's really important that we use the right word. Yeah.
[00:28:37] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. We've talked about language. Now we're moving into vulvas.
We are so on the same page.
[00:28:43] Kirli Saunders: Yeah.
[00:28:44] Maddy Stratten: You were meant to be On The Couch with the Caddyshack Project.
[00:28:45] Kirli Saunders: I'm so glad to be here with you.
[00:28:50] Maddy Stratten: I want to talk about, sexual reproductive health a little bit later, but before I get into that, I want to move into thinking about, stuff that I've actually labeled don't we already know this stuff?' As my subheading on this section, um, it's stuff that we all should know but I think it's worth repeating and I'd love to hear your thoughts about moving forward.
We know that Aboriginal spiritual and cultural practices have been shaped and adapted for over 60, 000 years. As we gain a greater appreciation and understanding of Indigenous knowledge, how can this knowledge inform our decision making today?
What effect would you like to see for society? And what is your vision and innovations for tomorrow? Three very big questions.
[00:29:34] Kirli Saunders: Well, I think, we're seeing the Uluru Statement of the Heart be plastered everywhere and all communities have different attitudes to this. And I wholeheartedly support the self determination of Aboriginal communities. I support a Voice to Parliament. I support treaty. I support sovereignty. Um, and I think it's important to yarn about what this would mean for us if we, if we had to forego sovereignty, and we weren't entitled to treaty, but we were ingrained in the Constitution without that recognition, I think I'd be, I'd be mad. So, I think it's worth, like, sitting with that and understanding it more fully, and I have to go and understand it more fully, and it changes over time. So, um, but yes, wholeheartedly support the self determination of communities. That's one thing that I think this Indigenous knowledge needs to be, it needs to be led by community, offered up in collaboration with community.
For community. Um, and if we're going to change strategies and policies and, and our ways of being in the world, then we've got to do it with mob at the front and support them.
[00:30:44] Maddy Stratten: And appreciate that it's a living knowledge too. And I love that, that phrase. When we talk about Indigenous knowledge that it's, it is living, it is so vast.
[00:30:54] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, and I think I had a really beautiful yarn of Dr. Lily Brown and Genevieve Greaves for the Griffith Review, and we were talking about the abolishment of education systems. And it's a beautiful read if you can, if you Google those names, you'll find it. And Lily had said, like, there's this beautiful idea of Indigenous knowledges being ingrained into everything we do, and isn't that wonderful? But if we want Indigenous knowledge to continue, we need kids to be able to sit in relationship with their elders. And if we want our kids to sit in relationship with their elders, then we've got to stop incarcerating them.
[00:31:31] Maddy Stratten: Yeah.
[00:31:35] Kirli Saunders: It's a, it's a no brainer really. And if we're talking about Indigenous knowledge well Indigenous knowledge is inherently tied into and with land and comes from land. And then we're talking about land back. So, I think this is a a more complex thing that gets really romanticized. Look at this beautiful bush food, read this book, learn this perspective.
Yes. Do that. But also, make sure that you're championing Raise The Age. Make sure that you're challenging the establishment of institutions for youth incarceration and that you're challenging deaths in custody and incarceration of mob. Knowing the systematic racism that exists.
[00:32:14] Maddy Stratten: Yeah, and it's so important to to go beyond this kind of Disney version of what what is actually happening today. Yeah, and I guess that kind of leads then into what those visions are for the future and thanks so much for sharing some of that.
You and I have talked about this before and I thought I'll wait to see if you bring it up. If not, I'm going to prompt you. And so this is my very obvious way of prompting you. We've talked about this before that there actually isn't a lack of information there's a lack of empathy.
There isn't a lack of information, there's a lack of empathy. Can you share a little bit more about that?
[00:32:54] Kirli Saunders: So I went and saw Alok, um, they men who, um, they then run down the binary, incredible Indian person coming out of the state who speaks about the intersectionality of, of racism with queerness and or, or gayness and, their gender and. Such an interesting, interesting take on the world when they said that there isn't a lack of information or access to it. It's not that people don't have the information or are ignorant is that they don't care. That cuts my heart right open because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is only happening because this harm is only happening because people don't know.
But, we know, you know, we just might be more interested in living a comfortable, powerful life. And I think, we really have to, sometimes we've got to get out of the way if we want to allow other people to be in power or other people to realize um, the opportunities potential available to them and the reality is we, we uphold the system every time we choose to, to not challenge those ways of being or thinking.
So, yeah, I encourage, and I know that all of the people on this aren't the people that I need to yarn with about it. you all know.. It's the people who, um, yeah, often in seats of power, um, often men, often white, often straight, that we got to, that we got to change those mentalities for. And, um, yeah, I think like toxic patriarchy and, um, scarcity mindset, both historically of, you know, being settled as a penal quality.
Like there's so much in that there's so much disconnection and trauma and lack of cultural ways of being and connecting and community that exist for, um, for white Cishet men. And, um, I was raised by one. I love him, you know? Yeah. So yeah, I really empathize, I really get it, but also what I'll be going to do?
And, um, I like, I, I say that also lovingly. My dad's just moved in to really small country town, um, up on the North coast. And he is, he's like, I'm radicalizing them Kirls. I said, what do you mean, dad? He's like, I'm sending, I'm sending books. Around the people by black writers about black history. I was like, yes, dad, get him.
So, um, you know, we can infiltrate subtly and with love. And I think that's my mom's way gently, gently, always with love.
[00:35:33] Maddy Stratten: And doing it with love it's like, actually, I don't hate you. I just want you to understand. And I want you to have empathy.
[00:35:42] Kirli Saunders: It's really a personal thing, right? Like, um, I think sometimes when I have these conversations, people are feeling personally impacted by them. Like, but you're judging me as a person. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm judging you as a product of a system that doesn't allow equality. That doesn't allow opportunity to marginalized communities and I think you have a role in the system and we'd love for you to help us change like number 3 percent of the population. It's a bloody long walk. We're going to need someone to carry the water.
[00:36:16] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Come on, come on community. I think that the system is slowly changing. There still is a way to go, to access, and I guess the full representation in the medical system and beyond medical system as well. What have you seen as the enablers of what we can do right now and in our work?
[00:36:43] Kirli Saunders: I mean, I think there's like, we, we know that mob feel a lot safer when they go to meet mob, particularly in healthcare systems. The reason that so often we're accessing spaces like AMS (Aboriginal Medical Services) or, um, we're yarning Aboriginal Liaison Officer (ALO) where we're, if we are admitted into hospitals and my mum's an ALO and loves her job.
Yeah, I think there's there's real power in the visibility of mob within the system to be able to help us navigate the system if we are coming into it. So there's definitely that. Unfortunately, though, mob tend to occupy the lower runs of the power hierarchy within the system. And gosh, it'd be nice if blackfellas were designing healthcare for mob within government and beyond. And I just think, I feel like that would really shift the way, ways of accessibility of the system, but also the services provided, the logistics around those things and, um, would continue to provide paid employment pathways for and education opportunities and leadership opportunities for mob in spaces that like medicine people, uh, one of the oldest roles, oldest professions, if you will, in our community. So we've always had healers. We've always had doctors. We've always had nurses and social workers and psychologists. Um, and that wisdom hasn't always been respected in white systems of health. So I think that's a really important thing. I would also love to like, we're all, all of us want to see the gap close.
Yeah. Right. Um, but I think that's, it's also such deficit language. It's so sad thinking about, mob as statistics instead of people. And the dehumanization of that, and I think dehumanization through systems is such an integral part of why we want to opt out. We just don't want to be another statistic, you know?
And, um, and so I think, how can we, how can we humanize again, these systems? And my mum, I've had so many people and all kinds of things. One in an event, I was speaking at this at the Australian museum. So it was a big event. And this guy came up to me and he was like, you don't know me yet, but I know your mum and I'm going to talk about it today. And I was like, Oh, okay. And in front of like this huge audience, he was like, I just want to shout out to Joycey Saunders is the ALO at Bankstown Bowral hospital who, um, who took care of my family while they were in hospital.
This woman is dedicated and she's humble and she's kind and she's warm. And she did such a good job of holding us, the family and the community, as well as this person in care while they were in this space and it just made me ball. Well, how do you get up and speak after that?
[00:39:39] Maddy Stratten: I have no idea how you did that because that is just so powerful.
[00:39:43] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. But it also just made me realize the power of, of humanness of kindness in our work every day and how important that is. So I would just say that like, life's really busy, medical people are very busy, but, relating with people on a human level and, the compassion that can shift the system is what is needed.
[00:40:09] Maddy Stratten: There was so much in that. You're more than just a number and a statistic, we get those reports that get sent around and here are the stats and those stats are actual humans. And, more than just that individual, it's that individual's families, that individual's community around them and their country and their story. And it's just, yeah, it's a, it's a really, I think it's really good for us to take away and think about that in the work that we do.
[00:40:38] Kirli Saunders: And I think also unpicking bias, like, we might be meeting someone who comes in without any identification, any identifying documentation, or, who might be unemployed, or, you know, who might look like they don't have the standing in the way that we see standing in community. But that person could be the one who runs the cuppas to all the aunties up and down the streets and gets the groceries and bread and the medications for the elders in their community or, who's got all these rescue dogs or like, who knows, you know, maybe, maybe they have this beautiful big life that can't be quantified in the way that we look at success in, in Western worlds.
And when they arrived to us, there's this kind of perception of them being down and out, but they're living a really full and beautiful life. And, um, yeah, I think all those biases, we really got to pick apart when people arrive to us. And, um, I know I've mentioned Alok before, , but they also said, you don't have to understand me to empathize with me.
And, and I think that's huge. You don't have to understand me as a queer black woman. You don't have to understand my experience at all, but you can still be kind, you can still advocate for me, knowing the way the system works, you can still yeah, you can still change the way that you are.
[00:42:06] Maddy Stratten: We've had this conversation just recently about you don't have to have that same experience as someone else to have empathy. You don't even need to understand that experience. It's not comparing at all. It's just, it's just having empathy and having kindness.
[00:42:21] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. And I work with, I mentioned before the consulting work I do, like when I'm consulting to a large organization, quite often we'll do an anonymous privilege walk in our workshops and talk about, you know, where we move up, up the opportunity scale and where we move down and the daily, the daily stuff that happens.
[00:42:37] Maddy Stratten: Yeah.
[00:42:38] Kirli Saunders: And, I so often have people say to me, thanks for helping me articulate that I also move like, I also move forward and back in my own life, no matter. And that's everybody. Everybody has had experienced trauma, has experienced life, things has, limitations upon their daily ways of being and engaging with the world and having that self awareness and that awareness of other people just means that, and it particularly thinking of it like a system.
Makes the person human, but takes the pressure off us individually and helps us see how we're part of the system. And I think that feels for me, empowering.
[00:43:16] Maddy Stratten: What I'd love to know is how do you stay connected? How do you stay connected to people and culture in all of these conversations and all of these work and that we're doing?
How do you stay connected?
[00:43:30] Kirli Saunders: Yeah. So I call my family, I sit with them. I dance with them. I spend time outside on Country. I go out in the bush. I, I spend a lot of time making art and music, um, which to me are old ways. I, I just make sure I surround myself with really beautiful people who are also on the vision journey.
I think people who also are chasing down the things that I would like to in the world, but also voices who are willing to challenge that, um, I think is important people who you trust who can be like, have you thought about this thing? So all of that in connection. I practice a lot of yoga.
Um, I see, uh, she's like a space holder. So someone who works in, in therapy and psychology kind of spaces. Um, I do a lot of meditating. And I think the combination of all of that is a connectedness to myself, to Country, to kin, and to broader community, which means that the things that I'm creating aren't siloed.
Um, but I'm also not just projecting my stuff everywhere. I'm able to sit with myself and process my own feelings and thoughts and emotions, and then meet with other people and process them in community and create solutions that feel hopeful because all of this can feel big. And it can feel sad and it can feel hard and I think if we don't stay in radical action and radical hope, then we're just going to sit in eco grief and exhaustion and sadness and, um, yeah, like I keep coming back to mum, but she's this real, got this real talent for finding the little magic in a day. And I think those little magic moments of gratitude too really important on that path.
[00:45:09] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of, a lot of things that we can take from that going back to the beginning when we're talking about self care and community care, right. And for all of us to be connected and to keep checking in with ourselves so that we don't then end up word vomiting to our neighbor when we're taking the bins out about all of these things that have been going around in our heads. But sometimes you just need to find those ways to express yeah those emotions and express all of those thoughts and the pain and, and the joy and all of that. And it's so, um, we're so lucky to be able to, and, and fortunate to be able to see your expression in physical form in your work.
So, um, thanks so much, but I'm not wrapping up yet.
[00:45:50] Kirli Saunders: Good.
[00:45:50] Maddy Stratten: Because , if you have read our blogs and if you followed us on social media, you would know that we love to share about what we're loving right now. We love to connect people. No surprise there. We love to connect people to services, pages, books, podcasts, shows, the lot, as we reflect on popular culture and I guess the impact on popular culture, I'd love to hear about the people, who are inspiring and insightful to you, Kirli. And I guess, what are you watching, listening and reading to? Tell us?
[00:46:22] Kirli Saunders: I loved Heartbreak High. I loved it. It was so like, it's, it's, it's, so I, I binged it, I think, you know, like two days.
[00:46:30] Maddy Stratten: I'm so sad it was over, I needed to watch it from the beginning again.
[00:46:33] Kirli Saunders: And I mean, historically it was a great exploration of, you know, coming of age and sexuality and all these things. But I think now it's done with even more care. If there's any survivors, who are listening to this, I would just offer it with a content warning. There's some big things that go down within that, that body of work.
And, um, yeah, I encourage you to, to just check in with yourself, see if it's the right thing to watch or to listen to. Um, yeah, but I loved the black writers involved, the diversity of the cast, the diversity in sexuality, like there was just so much magic.
But wasn't it great too, that it wasn't like there was this school hierarchy, like everyone was just so authentically themselves.
Themselves.
[00:47:17] Maddy Stratten: And all connected. I just loved it. I was crying. I was laughing. Like it was a whole scene in my lounge room when I watched that over like in two days.
[00:47:28] Kirli Saunders: It's brilliant. Yeah. I read a lot of black literature. So I read Tony Birch's The White Girl. Thoroughly recommend. Melissa Lucashenko, I'm doing her Mullumbimby at the moment, um, because I loved Too Much Lip. poetry wise, I've always got, Ellen Van Neervan, and Jazz Money. Yeah, some, some of those beautiful writers on my desk.
And then, cute queer, queer novel girl crush by Florence Given, is what I'm turning over at the moment. And science and psychology wise, the Science Of Stuck. Is also a really good, really good book that I would recommend. Yeah.
[00:48:09] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Great. And I love you've categorized them too.
[00:48:14] Kirli Saunders: Like, well, I mean, I read a lot, right?
Like, and I only read when I'm not writing. So at the moment I'm in this big, like digesting, taking in writing kind of space and soon I'll get back to writing in which case I'll just turn them all off. And put all the books aside and create a pile and say, you're my summer read and I'll come back to you.
[00:48:35] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You kind of go through those waves, right.
[00:48:39] Kirli Saunders: Yeah.
[00:48:39] Maddy Stratten: Um, and listening to, we didn't hear what you're listening to. Who are you listening to?
[00:48:44] Kirli Saunders: Oh, I listen to, the, like The Front Left. Okay. On Spotify is a playlist I really like to listen to. So more sort of indie music. Um, I saw a Gang Of Youths recently and Dave, Dave Le’aupepe has gone on this incredible experiential journey of his connection to his Samoan culture and like Jewish and Samoan culture, the big choir energy, the kind of like rock boy out of Annandale thing.
I really like that. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, a bit of that and then, yeah, like I, I've always listened into, to black music, and there's lots of black music, podcasts and, playlists on Spotify. So yeah, just, just go on Google.
I mean, the Frontier War Stories is the other one that I've been kind of dipping in and out of.
It's big, but it's wonderfully delivered. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you're looking for truth telling, definitely that way.
[00:49:44] Maddy Stratten: Awesome.
[00:49:44] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, yeah.
[00:49:46] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Oh, so, so good. I heard actually recently on Instagram that you had moved some of your poems into like a rap. And I just freaking loved it. Like, it just, it made sense. Because it's just the rhythm and the tone.
[00:50:01] Kirli Saunders: I really love Horror Show. They're another band that I listen to and they, you know, I think they're beautiful allies and speak about important stuff. And, um, yeah, they, they put out this, does anybody want to write a rap for us? And I was like, go on then I'll do it. And it was so fun.
It like, and I really encourage you if you're listening and you have a creative practice, please like share your creative practice and, and also break it down and change it. Being a poet is definitely lends itself to music and I don't do enough of it and I'm holding myself to account when I say I need to write more songs and rap.Yeah.
[00:50:39] Maddy Stratten: Yeah. Yeah. Love that.
It's just been such a great experience for me to, to listen to you and to hear you share your experience and your family and your culture and that passion really has come across and even though we can, mourn Aunty Val, but, um, also so grateful that she was able to be part of this [00:51:00] conversation and lasting in so many lives and it's going to be those dinner table conversations, you know, call your family, call your friends and tell them about how, how great this experience has been, because that's what I'll be doing.
[00:51:12] Kirli Saunders: Thank you. Thank you so much. And thanks for having me On The Couch for all of your kind, open and listening ears. It's a real treat to have you with us. Um, yeah. And, and just really appreciate all of you, being open to these, these kinds of yarns, because I think you're not the ones who have to convince, but, um, yeah, we get to, we get to make the ripples and the ripples make change. So that's a good thing. Yeah.
[00:51:38] Maddy Stratten: I can't finish our chat On The Couch today without kindly asking if you could please read for us one of your, I don't want to say favorite, but maybe your favorite today.
[00:51:50] Kirli Saunders: Yeah, okay, cool. Favourite today feels softer. Yeah, yeah. I'm actually going to read from,
oh yeah, this one. This one's called Based on Us.
[00:52:04] Maddy Stratten: Thank you.
[00:52:04] Kirli Saunders: It's from Returning.
The Old People rain smiles
for their song
which brought us to be
here now
their glee moves in me
like river mint picked
and crushed on the breeze
magpie gargle and waddle
carefree
like in-land pearls
mussel flesh agleam
dewy fresh cut scar tree
like billy tea
strong, black, sweet
waratah stained flame
pop-crackle-simmering
eucalyptus smoke
from coolamon
billowing
until we’re clean
like estuary fish
both upstream
and one with the sea
and her expanse
like full moonbows
guarantee-ing
we see
what this means
for us now
and reap what they
sewed when they sung
this moment
into being.[00:52:56] Jennifer Farinella: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.
Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook where you can share On The Couch with your colleagues, friends, and family. On The Couch is made by Jennifer Farinella, Naomi Viret, Maddy Stratten and Winnie Adamson.
Until next time, peace, love and protection.