On The Couch with Chris Cheers

[00:00:00] Jennifer Farinella: Hello and welcome to an episode of On The Couch, where we collaborate with experts, practitioners, authors, advocates, and influencers to explore current social themes, sex positive topics, and share stories and insights that matter. This podcast was recorded on Aboriginal country. We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands that were never ceded on which we live, work and record upon.

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[00:00:34] Naomi Viret: I am Naomi and. I would like to welcome Chris Cheers to On the Couch. Chris is a psychologist and educator based down in Melbourne.

He's very passionate about creating accessible and accepting safe spaces where people become empowered to reach their life goals. It is through extensive training and lived experience that Chris has also developed expertise in providing individual psychology services and workshops to artists and creatives, particularly those in the LGBTIQA+ community.

Chris, welcome. Thank you so much for taking time out this morning and congratulations because we can also now add to your bio that you are an author with the newly released The New Rulebook, but I'd really like to kick off just by getting you to tell us a little bit more about yourself. How did you get to where you are today?

[00:01:26] Chris Cheers: Sure, so me, so I, yeah, as, as you mentioned, I've sort of ended up writing a book, but I've done a lot to get to that point.

So I started off, um, I actually used to be a terrible cabaret performer back in university days. I thought I was going to be a singer, um, which is where I established a connection with the arts back then and, and realized pretty quickly, I could not act, but I really wanted to be friends with all the artists.

So I, I kind of did sound and music and technician, anything that could keep me connected to the arts. And then, I was studying, uh, medical science and realized that me and science didn't quite match. There was something missing. So I went and had my kind of mid degree crisis and when studied arts and did philosophy and sociology and French and all these things, um, performance studies.

And then I ended up realizing I needed a bit of both. There's probably not many like me, so I've ended up with a double degree in performance studies and neuroscience. And then that went into then psychology because for me psychology is a match of both those things, of the arts and of science.

I love that psychology try, you know, these things like emotions and love that, that we write about in, in the arts. I love that psychology is the science that tries to understand those from a, from a scientific standpoint as well. So I love being in both those worlds.

Ended up becoming a psychologist. I was a child and adolescent psychologist for years, a high school psych, primary school psych. Um, and then I realized I was giving a lot of backyard therapy to a lot of my friends in the arts and a lot of my queer friends, you know, I'm a cisgender man, but I'm a queer man. And so part of the queer community, I realized I was, yeah, giving this sort of backyard therapy to all these people and, and realize that there was really a need for a lot of people working in that space. So then, uh, about five years ago now, I launched my own practice, which specializes in that, just that LGBTIQ mental health and mental health for the arts. And, and that's led to, to not only individual therapy for those groups, but workshops and organizations and, and trying to be a bit of a, I guess, activists in this space of how do we put wellbeing of artists first.

And how do we support the well being of people in the LGBTIQ+ community in a way that's accessible and understanding and validating because unfortunately so often it's not. So , that's what led has led me here today basically.

[00:03:46] Naomi Viret: Excellent. I just love it. And I think we, know that Melbourne is quite an artistic, creative, cultural space as well. Just to hear that, um, eclectic kind of frame that you've been able to put on supporting your community is just wonderful. So, um, if you could elaborate on that a little bit more, just in terms of what's driving that passion and commitment to work within that LGBTIQA+ space.

[00:04:10] Chris Cheers: I think it's a really passionate about working within my community. I think there is a bit of a push in psychologists to kind of be a bit of a blank slate for our clients that we're meant to not really express anything about ourselves or our identity or who we are. And to a degree, those boundaries, I think, are incredibly important.

You know, no one wants to see a psychologist that just talks about themselves, but I think it's also important that people, actually feel accepted and validated and safe within their mental health care or sitting down with a psychologist and, and what I found was when, when I made it known what some parts of my identity are.

So just knowing that I'm queer, knowing that I'm part of that community really makes a difference, I think, to some of my clients who are part of that community. , And this is, I think, what I've come to know more and more as I work in this space and work with people who have experienced quite harmful care, especially trans and gender diverse, you know, from the medical profession, from the mental health care profession.

And that's certainly what really, I have in the back of my mind, I want to care for my community. I want to be part of this community. I want to do my part to support the long history of people that have really have been activists and, and care for this community. And, uh, you know, part of that is wanting to heal and, and to make it known to, especially people who have experienced, harmful or discriminatory healthcare in the past that this space is for you and it can be a really important healing space for you.

[00:05:41] Naomi Viret: Yeah. And it's so beautiful to hear that. And we know that, the community, the LGBTIQA+ community do unfortunately experience higher rates of mental ill health. And so, like you said, to feel that they're coming into a safe space from the outset and know that they're going to be supported by that therapist. I think it is shifting that paradigm and thinking about treating people as people and really getting back to the core of what is it that they're needing. What are they accessing our service for? And does their sexuality or gender identity even matter to the type of care that you're giving to them, you need to be really mindful of that as well.

So as I mentioned, new author, so exciting. There's some quotes. That come out of the book that I just love and would really like to touch on. And I think it will really help us get into this conversation today and breaking down some of the really common themes that you're seeing with your clients and what's happening in community at the moment.

We've really enjoyed how the book takes time out to reflect on how lives have changed so much. And particularly in the last couple of years. And as I mentioned, being a Melbourneian yourself and living through the longest lockdown in the world, I can only imagine what that was like. But by far, my favorite quote of the book is. "I couldn't play by the rules, so I got to write my own." And I would love to hear what that meant for you and what that could mean for our audience.

[00:06:58] Chris Cheers: Yeah, and this, this is what I wanted the book to enter into this, this time and space that I'm feeling from people of, you know, this expectation to go back to normal and people are starting to feel that they don't want to just go back to some of these systems or some of these expectations that were put on them about how they want to live.

I feel like sometimes at times of uncertainty, there's a temptation to go back to those structures, to go back to the way things are, as if that will be safe or that, that will be the way to, to kind of happiness. Whereas what I want to invite people to do with my book and what I've, I guess, sort of lived through is actually trying to go back to your body and what you need.

So when I write, "I couldn't follow the rules, but I lived by my own." I think that incredibly comes from. The powerful part of being a member of the queer community, I think for me, is what that connects to. That, you know, being queer is about sexuality, but in many cases it's also about, growing up within a society, when I was younger, where I didn't feel accepted. You know, I experienced homophobia. I I grew up in regional New South Wales. I didn't have, These models in the town and it to, to, what felt like the kind of life I wanted to have. And when I told, you know, find a, find a girl and get married and, and these things didn't, they just didn't feel right for me.

And, as I went to uni and build a confidence and, and then went into, psychology and continue to build that confidence. I, I think that's where I started to think, okay, I'm I'm can't follow these rules that don't work for me and also not only just sexuality but just the rules of, you know, I talk a lot in the book about, that we sometimes in life we feel like we're kind of given this career ladder or to climb or this relationship ladder to climb and we're told if we just follow it, we just do what's expected, we'll get to the top and then we'll be happy and I think a lot of us can connect to that idea of we've tried to do that.

And it hasn't led to perhaps this happy, great life that we're meant to do. So for me, I don't want the book to become just another ladder that you feel like you have to do, or a list of like self care things that you feel like you need to do. I want the book to invite people to just push down all the ladders.

And just live, live every day, according to what you feel like you need or what your body needs or what kind of relationship you want or what meaningful work looks like for you. These are big, difficult questions that, that I hope the book kind of invites people to, to get uncomfortable with, to sit in that discomfort and actually try and find their own answers.

[00:09:32] Naomi Viret: And I just, yeah, it really resonated with me personally. And I know it has with a lot of others. And I think you've touched on some really strong key points there in terms of the particular area that you grew up in. And we know that a lot of people within the community will say, I didn't have people who were like me and interesting that you've now found yourself in the psychology space and working with community in that sense too.

Now, I guess following on from that theme about returning to normal and what was normal, what is normal, but our world feeling very orientated towards the out and it's noisy and it's busy and it's really distracting.

How can we as individuals cultivating that turning inwards? And like you said, just tuning back into our bodies and our minds and thinking about what it is that we're actually needing or craving in our lives right now. Are you able to talk to that a little bit in terms of practicality? Like how do we actually do that?

[00:10:24] Chris Cheers: And I think practicality is a great word to use here because I think there's a danger as psychologists, or in these sorts of panels . That we talk about these things at a very theoretical level like to live authentically to, live a life of meaning to, turn inward, which, you know, great concepts to sort of talk about.

But I think when it comes to actually doing them, it is a practice. And a lot of what I want the book to do. And a lot of what I do as a psychologist is experiential is, is thinking about, well, but how do you put this into practice? How do you actually go from sitting down and actually working out what an authentic life looks like for you, uh, and, and in the book, I go through a clear practice for that, because that's a really difficult thing to do. The same with turning inward. I think for me, turning inward is something that I have to learn how to do, so for me, what that means is first off remembering that emotions are a way we make meaning of the life.

So turning inward for me is actually starts with recognizing my emotions. So I often, during the day or most days, and I, this is the point of like, I put a reminder on my phone, I put it in my calendar. To, to create space to go inward or to create space, to check in, it'll just be in my calendar, I'll just say like check in. And for me, that means I ask myself three questions. I go inward. I say, how am I feeling? And I might name that emotion, or I might, recognize how I'm feeling physically in the body. I then say, why does it make sense that I feel like that? Because so much of our life is telling us that we shouldn't feel a certain way, or that our feelings are our fault or mean we're faulty.

So I always ask myself that question. Why does it make sense that I feel like this? Because I want people to recognize the stuff beyond their control that's, that's leading them to feel like this, like anxiety is a normal reaction to the world right now. So what, how do I feel? Why does it make sense that I feel like this?

And then what do I need? And what do I need? I think in terms of, right now, you know, so in that check in after that check in, I might just do what you need. It might be just, and I don't mean like, you know, quit your job and walk out the door, unless that's where your body leads you.

But I mean, go and have a glass of water, go and sit down, go and read five pages of a book. My piano is just sitting right behind me. Often it's like, I just go and play a song or I go for a five minute walk or I eat something, you know, giving ourselves permission to just even have 10 minutes in our day where we're listening to our body.

That's the kind of practice that I think we just do that repeatedly and it builds a different relationship with your body where your body signals and emotions start to become something you can listen to rather than something that's seen as a distraction from your work or a distraction from your day.

[00:13:08] Naomi Viret: I love it and I definitely just took notes of those three points and I'm going to start to practice that because I just, I really like that. And self care is something that we've been speaking a lot about in our professional space and that often people see self care as this, you know, it's a massage, it's a cocktail on the beach, it's something that you have to schedule and we're like, we want you to flip how you're thinking, excuse me, about that and think. You've just hit the nail on the head. How do I incorporate that 10 minutes into my workday? How do I make sure that I'm stepping away from the computer and that work life and just taking that time out for me that, that quick walk around the block, go and sit in the sunshine and just soak up some vitamin D for five minutes in fresh air.

Those small things can be quite meaningful and add up to really big things. And, just being able to check back in with yourself. And I think it's also really nice because you could also use those three points to check in, with others as well.

[00:14:00] Chris Cheers: Yeah, it's exactly what I think down with someone and saying, how do you feel, let me tell you why it makes sense you feel like that. And, and I think one of the most important questions in organizations, in relationships, in anywhere is what does support look like for you right now? I use that all the time because it releases us at this pressure to know how to care for people, which is sometimes why we don't enter the conversation. Learning that what does support look like for you right now has been really impactful in a lot of the work or community environments I've been part of.

[00:14:30] Naomi Viret: And I really like that language as well because we often talk about the language that we're using and how just shaping some of that language or saying things in a slightly different way can really change the meaning of what it is that you're having a conversation around.

And so, yeah, I really like that flip of what does that support look for you right now?

This term, constructive discomfort, like sitting in this discomfort and getting okay with being uncomfortable around things. Are you able to elaborate on that a little bit further for us, please?

[00:14:59] Chris Cheers: Yeah, I really went into, a lot of their studies on the neuroscience emotions when I started going down to this, into this chapter, and also the work of Susan David, who, wrote a book called Emotional Agility that some of you may be aware of. For Susan David, emotional agility is the capacity to turn towards our emotions and see them as a normal part of living a meaningful life.

Or to put it another way, Susan David's famous quote is, "discomfort is the price for admission for a meaningful life." And what I take from that and and what my work in emotions has then become about is how often we are taught rules about emotions that we grow up with that, you know, don't get upset here, don't get angry, now's not the time, you know, boys don't cry, no need to get upset, don't be like that. You know, messages time and time again, that is telling us that there's not a space for our emotions. And this is the same with toxic positivity. It's just as unhelpful if you're feeling like crap and someone says, you know, you've got this it's, you know, we have this thing where, we feel like it's sometimes our job is as carers, as, parents as friends to make people feel happy, where often what we need to do is create space for that discomfort to, to say to someone, it makes sense that you feel like this. I'm here for you. You know, let's talk about this emotion, let's validate this emotion. I think, that is how we can start to see emotions, not as this thing that's distracting us or that we shouldn't be feeling or that we don't have space for, or we need to like distract ourselves from, you know, like social media and Netflix and all these things.

They're really effective in the short term for kind of distracting ourselves from emotions, but, but the emotional agility skills that, that I try and teach people in the book are about being compassionate and curious for our emotions to remember that our emotions, before even our brain kicks it in to gear, our emotions are the thing that give us information about our environment. They're the thing that help us make meaning of the world. So being compassionate or constructive discomfort is about giving meaning to our emotions. And that doesn't make them go away. You know, just because you give meaning to your suffering, meaning to your pain, doesn't make the pain go away. But it does, allow you to create more space for it. And, you know, anyone who's been through grief, for example, will understand what I'm talking about, when I say that emotion doesn't go away. We learn to make space for it. We learn to see it as part of our life rather than overwhelming. So that's what I mean by constructive discomfort, making meaning of your emotions and helping them to lead you to, to a meaningful life and to see them as part of that meaningful life.

[00:17:44] Naomi Viret: Yeah. To own those emotions. And I think what really sticks out for me when you're talking then is the validity of it. Like it's valid that those emotions are existing and yeah, it's completely okay that you're going through whatever that particular emotion is, we all work through emotions very differently in our own time and space and place as well.

So I'm going to keep, on a little bit with that emotion. And that sometimes we feel really scared or overwhelmed by some of those emotions that are coming up and I love how you talk about surrendering to our emotions. That doesn't mean that we won't stop crying or that we're not going to get stuck in a rage, but what does surrendering to those emotions actually mean or look like?

[00:18:28] Chris Cheers: Yeah, the concept of surrender, I guess, is when we're giving up on the wish that things were different or we are, you know, that old Carl Rogers quote that, accepting things as they are, it's always the first point of change. I think surrendering to emotions is not about, creating the emotions. It's not about trying to bring them out of you. What I'm talking about there is just an idea of just, surrendering to it and surrendering it to what it is, we, have all this language around emotions that, that make them out as the enemy sometimes, you know, a panic attack, for example, panic attack is the worst marketing for something that's ever existed. Nothing's attacking you. It's not an attack. And we give it this language that makes it an enemy that makes it something, you know, that, that is, you know, out to get us or we have to fight against. Whereas I think, surrendering to emotions is about, and this is difficult to do, but it's about developing the skills of being able to accept and understand and create space for the emotion in the first instance.

And it, and often that , it doesn't make the emotion go away, but it can often stop that cycle. That can sometimes really lead to more panic, that we get anxious for our anxiety, then we get angry, that we're anxious, and then we feel guilty that we're angry, that we're anxious.

And this kind of cycle can begin. I think one way to change that cycle is that that idea of actually giving space to name our specific emotion and then use that to kind of validate it, can really start to change that process I think.

And that's what I mean by surrender, actually accepting or naming that first emotion, seeing it not as an enemy, but remembering that our emotions are a normal physiological system of our body, they're there for a reason.

[00:20:16] Naomi Viret: I was going to say, I just think those emotions are what are keeping us safe often.

Yeah. Like they're those instincts of, you may not be safe in this particular situation or you're responding based off of that fight, flight, freeze, faun and it's a safety mechanism that kicks into. And I'm just going to read out this quote, um from the book around this emotional stuff, it really struck a chord. So, "we've learned that if we're tired, we should drink coffee. If we're sad, take a pill. Our anger needs management. Our excitement is too much and our jealousy is ridiculous. Our fear of unwarranted and our anxiety is pathological. We're told that being too emotional is a bad thing." So quote unquote, nice little ribbon on that emotional section.

But if there's anything else that you'd like to add to that, I'd really love to hear it.

[00:21:04] Chris Cheers: No, I would only add that it's, it's a hard one, practice, emotional agility. It's something that I still have to do every day, you know, as I, you know, approach a lecture or a panel, you know, I still get. anxious. I still have to name it and allow space for it. I still shake often when I'm giving, big presentations and that sort of thing. And I often, yeah, remember, okay, it's normal that I feel like this. I have to go through that process and it, and it does change my experience of it, but it, but it, it's something that it's a daily practice.

[00:21:34] Naomi Viret: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Really appreciate it.

I'd like to talk about values now. And, values is, it's probably another one that's, um, you know, when we talk about language and values and what are your values and what's your why and what's your purpose. But I'd like to think about values in the sense of how we're using those values to determine or shape our why and give purpose to what it is that we're trying to achieve, either it be in a work life, in personal life, where, where do values sit?

[00:22:04] Chris Cheers: Yeah, values is something that I'm sure everyone, especially if you work in the mental healthcare space or any support spaces, you've done values work, or you've certainly done this work before. And I'd certainly have, and I, when I sat down to write this chapter, it's a chapter about work, and it was very interesting to me that this chapter is not about work at all. It kind of starts questioning that work for a lot of us has become this space where we feel our productivity is our worth that we've kind of chosen our, as I said before, our career ladder that, and we feel like we have to, there's a lot of, I have to, I should, that this is just the way it has to be.

And I think, well, why this chapter became not about that very quickly is I wanted to try and detach people from from this idea that your worth is productivity that your work is your identity is something where we get stuck sometimes that and a lot of the artists I work with are like I am an actor, I'm a director, and so when their work is not going well, or when they receive feedback about their work, obviously, It's taken very personally because they've kind of become their work. And this is the same with, doctors or psychologists. So, you know, you might yourselves connect to some of this stuff where our work starts to become our identity.

And what I want people to examine is, and this comes from a lot of the work of acceptance commitment therapy, really, that I've practiced for years, is seeing, our life is made up of multiple domains, or as I call them, multiple pillars of, work being one of them, but also your relationships, but also your leisure time, also your spirituality, whatever your domains are.

What I want people to start to think about is how can you live a meaningful life across all those domains, you know, and a meaningful life for me means living aligned with your values. And that sentence I find we kind of understand and we talk about, you know, living by your values, but what I think is the problem is values are useless if you don't actually put them into action.

And I think this is the thing we don't spend enough time doing. This is where I often talk about the idea of, we need to stop setting goals. I'm not talking about thinking about your values and thinking about, in a year's time, I want to be here, or, in six months time, I want to be doing this, sometimes goals can be motivating if they work for you, that's great. But sometimes goals can be a distraction from the idea that today you can do small achievable things. That are living by your values and change in our life. We have this, I think, problematic idea that changes about sheer willpower. Like if I just set the goal and build the willpower and build the motivation that I can do it, I can make myself do it.

And I'm sure we've all done that before we've set goals and they just haven't happened, because, the actual way we change our life or to make it look more like a meaningful life, starts with just setting what I call actions, which are little things you can do in the next 24 hours that align with your values. So one of my values is beauty, connection, authenticity. So one thing I sometimes do is, I talk about, sitting down and playing a song on the piano or listening to a song I love, or just going to take a photo just for the sake of being creative today. Messaging a friend you haven't seen for a long time might be how you live by your value of connection.

And then feel a sense of achievement when you do that little thing. And that's what causes change in life. Little achievable actions add up. And I think sometimes with values, we can get a bit lost in , we want our meaningful life to look completely different, which I call dreams. I think dreams are a wonderful thing. And I actually, always talk about people sitting down and dreaming big, absolutely. But then when it comes to actions, I think we need to spend a lot more time thinking about the next 24 hours than we do thinking about where we want to be in a year.

[00:26:04] Naomi Viret: I really, yeah, I really, really like it and, values is something that is often quite, personal and sometimes people don't often talk publicly about their values, but you absolutely have gone public with your values because you publish them in your book.

And so I'd like to touch base because you've spoken about that connectivity and, you also talk about authenticity, courage and care within community. Let's hear it. Come on. Let's unpack it.

[00:26:30] Chris Cheers: Well, first of all, I would say it's hard, to live by our values. You know, I want to, I want to really name that, that it, it takes a lot of constructive discomfort. It takes a lot of creating space for emotions to live by our values. For example, authenticity, it is, impossible to be authentic all the time that I'm certainly not suggesting that that's me, but I do, you know, all the time, think about how can I be authentic today, what is the way to do that, that's become so important in my work.

I'm an educator, so I lecture in my writing and in my job as a psychologist, I can see the value of authenticity because. I think being authentic is it's in the, in the book, I define love, which is a whole other thing. But one of the things that I define love by is having a sense of connection and belonging in a relationship. And for me, connection and belonging has to start with authenticity. You can't feel genuinely like you are accepted by someone unless you genuinely share who you are. And I think that's what authenticity means for me, that even though it's difficult and hard trying to think about how can I be myself as, as the starting point for building really genuine, valuable relationships in my life.

So then that leads into connection that leads into caring for community. Cause I think caring for community, the more authentic I can be for a lot of people in my community, the more likely they are to trust me, trust this stuff and build on people, knowing who you are and trusting you as a person, which sometimes take authenticity. These things, the values kind of go together for me, but I think they are also something that I guess changes as well.

Like, I want to always create space for that because sometimes when I sit down with people and ask them, what are your values? I know that that can be a daunting task for people. So I often kind of rewind it back and say, you know what, I'm not asking you to define what a meaningful life is right now. I'm just saying today, what seems most important for you at the moment, those can be a value. So really allowing space to chop and change our values as we ourselves grow and change as well.

[00:28:47] Naomi Viret: Nice. And I'd like to ask you a question around authenticity, because, I think authenticity comes down to consistency and particularly in those support roles or even those therapeutic roles where you're seeing clients on an ongoing basis. They come to you and build rapport with you because of a certain persona or authentic personality or person that you've put across, and so say, you weren't consistent in that authenticity, they come to the next appointment and feel like you've changed as a person. That has a really big impact in support roles. But do you see a connection with that, like in terms of authenticity and being consistent and that that might be linked together?

[00:29:25] Chris Cheers: Yeah, and what I'm interested in is also is, like what is consistent? You know, as a psychologist I very much understand the role of support workers that we must have boundaries, like self disclosure, can be inappropriate and unhelpful in a lot of therapeutic roles.

But what I say there is, authenticity without boundaries is not useful, and I mean that both in professional roles, but in personal roles as well, in a lot of relationships, you can't just, be authentic and be honest a hundred percent of the time there will be times where that won't be helpful for relationship as well.

So when I talk about authenticity, or my authenticity always has boundaries, but underneath those boundaries or underneath all those roles I play, I like to think that I know, who is that consistent self, that self that is able to observe what I'm doing, and is able to say, right now you are not being totally authentic but it's because of this or it's, it's because there's a decision here that in this circumstance that's not going to be helpful, so as a psychologist you know there's obviously a lot of stuff I don't talk about myself in that space, because I know that that's helpful for the clients and same with, relationships with family versus with friends. There's certain things you, talk differently about in those different spaces, but, but underneath it, there needs to be an authenticity. And, what I ended up talking a lot about in this book is authenticity, actually, which I wasn't expecting. And what I want people to acknowledge is that to live authentically is a very hard one because we're up against, not only the expectations of a society around us that tells us we have to be a particular way or work a particular way or, be a particular way in relationships. But also we grow up with, with mindsets or beliefs that we're taught as children that give us messages about what parts of us are okay and what parts of us aren't.

We'll grow up with this idea that, that we're not enough or that, that part of us is not okay or that part of us is too much, and I think the, the kind of quest to live authentically is a lifelong process. And it is often about unlearning those two things, unlearning the expectations put around you by the world, and also unlearning some of those beliefs that you've learned in your development, and then seeing the authentic self that, that can come through that is, is I think part of the, the lifelong process. I try and introduce people to, to kind of start through the book.

[00:31:51] Naomi Viret: So empowering and insightful. And it leads really nicely into this little point on trauma.

And I think what you've just said there in terms of our childhoods and what we've potentially absorbed or taken on in this real strong sense of, am I enough? Um, we know that trauma informed care is definitely having a moment right now and definitely working on making sure that it's here to stay in terms of acknowledging people's backgrounds and stories and that we're all individuals with different experiences.

How do you incorporate that trauma informed care into the, especially the therapeutic work that you're doing with clients? Where's that fitting in?

[00:32:30] Chris Cheers: Yeah, it's about, the book comes to mind to begin with, the book very carefully at the beginning has a section where it's really invites people to consider whether they're ready to do this work through a book and, and if the book brings up big emotions, or big, emotional experiences and, invites people to seek care.

'Cause I, what I, know is that sometimes, doing a self care book or going to see a psychologist cannot be helpful, if that space is getting you, to relive your trauma, to talk about your trauma in a way where you don't feel supported. So what trauma informed practice means for me is making sure that there is a, a safe foundation before someone processes, their trauma. For me, the process of what I've learned as a psychologist, what I lead people to do is to process their trauma. And what I mean by that is to be able to create an understanding of a past or a traumatic experience that you can incorporate into a sense of yourself. That it becomes something that you can, see in a particular way, build a narrative around, build an understanding of, process in a way that it can become integrated into you and into your sense of self.

And that work requires, a sense of safety and a sense of being able to regulate your emotion, a sense of being able to acknowledge and name when your body is becoming overwhelmed, when your emotions are becoming overwhelming. So we can regulate them so we can go back to talking about that. So, for me, a lot of the work of being trauma informed is much more about the work you do before you start talking about the trauma.

And for me, that's about being a psychologist that makes people feel safe and validating. But it's also about being aware that this person has the skills or the ability to do this work before you begin. That can be an issue, is if we fall into this myth that talking about stuff is always helpful because talking about really challenging, difficult, traumatic experiences in the past isn't helpful if you're just going to put it out there and then the session and you're just going to go home alone.

[00:34:42] Naomi Viret: You know that it's retraumatizing, if anything, it's…

[00:34:44] Chris Cheers: Exactly, and I think we all need to understand that, as a community need to, you need to know that and think about not only how do we make sure that the session maybe is supportive, but how do we make sure that we're aware that this person has supports before and after when they're doing this work.

I've worked with a lot of social workers in my time and I have such a deep respect and for what I've learned through them and what was missing in my, to be honest, my education as a psychologist, that this idea of understanding systems and, as psychologists, sometimes we focus far too much on the individual. The problem is in the individual, and so you as an individual need individual therapy. So you as an individual can do the work, it's so focused on the individual, and I think it misses what is really important was doing the work to try and understand the systems that may be discriminating, oppressing, to know what protective factors are around for this person, and also to just know, what are some bigger, systemic factors that might be influencing and impacting this person as well.

[00:35:44] Naomi Viret: Because they're existing as more than just an individual because they are family members, they're community members. It's yeah, it's bigger than just the individual 100 percent. And just touching on that trauma stuff, I think, it's one of the key things that we talk about in terms of the semantics or the language, and, it's not what's wrong with you, it's what's happened to you and being able to explore that, in a much deeper way. And, you've spoken about your work in the art industry, and I think it's pretty fair to say that they are by far the most affected people out of, COVID in terms of career and lifestyle and things like that.

Are you able to talk to how you kept, I guess, being inventive and creative in the space, in being able to provide therapy to that group of individuals?

[00:36:26] Chris Cheers: Yeah, it was a tough, tough couple of years. A lot of my clients, who are actors, performers, musicians, they lost overnight. They just lost their entire, all their work, and there was no sense of when it was coming back. And there was also for a lot of them, because a lot of them were casual or employees within the arts or in short term contracts, didn't receive JobKeeper didn't receive supports during this time.

So a lot of my work was, just about trying to support them to find a sense of, just building a sense of safety, a sense of housing, a sense that they had in place enough to make sure that they will be okay. It sounds. It's hard to even put myself back in that place, but for a lot of artists, it was, can I pay rent? Can I have food on the table? I think It was about trying to find, and I go back to, Viktor Frankl's work sometimes here in Man's Search for Meaning, the idea that even in the most difficult of circumstances, the, the one thing that can never be taken from you is your ability to choose your attitude towards those circumstances. That's Viktor Frankl, and I think for a lot of artists and creatives, what I helped is build, uh , a reframe or a different attitude towards this set of circumstances. Even though this was completely unexpected, difficult, challenging space, how could they live by their values within this space, how could that, how could I support artists to pivot to still being creative in different ways? And, and I talked a lot to artists during that time, although the, how they made their work looked very different, the why they made that work would be consistent.

So we talked a lot about why, a lot about their values and, and learn new ways to pivot to different ways of expressing that, and using that space to do things differently. And also, that Viktor Frankl idea of making meaning of suffering became really important to me at that time. The idea that those emotions that were there, that was so challenging and difficult to deal with, it felt like that because what they do is important, you know, and I think that's the reframe we can often give to suffering that doesn't make it feel better, but it allows us to give it meaning that this thing that you're striving for, that is missing from your life is so important to you. And you are part of a history of artists who it has also been important to you that, that have fought up against systems and to make that happen, and I think during those times of suffering, that idea of self compassion, the idea that suffering is, is something that's experienced by all. As strange as it sounds, there was, such a sense of connection during that time for us, even though we're also isolated because we were doing it together. And I think the more we could connect to that, the more it helped us all kind of get through.

[00:39:14] Naomi Viret: And keeping community together and probably coming back stronger, louder, more creative than ever before, because you have had some time and space to be able to work on that creativity as well. And probably coming out and being creative in really different ways to, previously as well.

So I want us to go on the up and, push towards the end with the up. You mentioned there's a whole section in the book around love and connection, and I really like this reference to the Dunbar Social Network and talking about the 150 connections that we have in our lives and what those layers of connection are. So, potentially, we have about 150 connections within our lives. 100 of those are going to be family or relationships, 35 of those are going to be good friends, 10 of those are going to be our core crew, [00:40:00] 5 be our besties, and 1 to 2 intimates. Are you able to talk us through these layers of social connection and thinking about, especially those intimates and those core crew?

[00:40:12] Chris Cheers: Yeah, so this is the work of Robin Dunbar, who actually wrote a book just after I brought up mine actually called Friends, it's all about, his research that he's doing for decades, which came from first cognitive work with our brains and relating to primate brains. And there's a science behind this, that he started to look at what is the, ultimate number of connections. The number of close connections that your brain can sort of handle cognitively is another way to think about it. And for me, this became really important because I, as I said, I'm queer, but I'm also polyamorous. So I have two partners. A lot of people in the queer community now are ethically non monogamous or consensually non monogamous, meaning that multiple partners. And I think, not any queer people, but a lot of people are starting to question the way that we focus on finding the one and having one relationship.

And what I wanted my chapter about love to be about is, yes, that one partner might be incredibly intimate, important partner, but, I think, good wellbeing is actually to know that all the close relationships in our life are important.

[00:41:18] Naomi Viret: They all serve a purpose because not one person could serve all of our needs in any given relationship.

[00:41:25] Chris Cheers: And so many, I think sometimes focus so much on maybe one or two or some really close relationship and maybe not so much on the others. And I think that's what I talk about in the book about building a sense of community is knowing that it's not just one partner who is, that you just have to spend the rest of your life with, and everything will be happy.

It's actually thinking about, who are the important people in your life? Who are your us? Or as I talk about your core crew. So for Robin Dunbar, when you add your intimates and your sort of close friends and kind of your besties, this group of really the people that you would, allow to look after your children, the people that you would go to no matter what, adds up to around sort of the 15 to 20 mark. So yeah, Robin Dunbar has specific numbers, but he allows a bit of leway. Flexibility.

So, what that means for me is what we need to think about is who are your, who are your 15 and that includes family, friends, partners. Thinking about that group of people it's not about honoring, blood relationships more than others. It's not about honoring people you're married to more than others. It's about thinking, who are your people? Who are your us? Who are your core crew? And thinking about how can you love them. So that's where I use the word love. I define love as putting belonging, connection, and safety into action for not just your one partner, but for your us for your community.

And I think it's so powerful on many levels to go into that space, but especially where the reaction to the book and those chapters specifically, I've seen it being really important for people who do not have a partner right now or who are not married, because they talk about as if they're seen as failed. What I really want this chapter to do, is tell them that, the people who, are at a deficit in terms of connection, are not people who are not married. It's people who are not enacting authentic love with the important people in their life. Who are not having that sense of belonging and connection and safety into action.

So that's what I want that chapter to do is to say, whatever kinds of relationships work best for you, know who those important people are, and then think about how you can enact that love with with all of those people, not just this patriarchal kind of maybe religious idea of the one you married held above all.

[00:43:57] Naomi Viret: Yeah.

[00:43:58] Chris Cheers: It's love is actually community. Love is, is who are your people and how do you put that love into action.

[00:44:04] Naomi Viret: Michelle Obama refers to that is the people at the kitchen table.

And I refer to that as who am I around that actually energizes me? Who is it that you're around that actually reinvigorates your passion for life and really provides you with that energy. And I doubt that there would be a single one person in our life that would fill all those cups for us. I certainly have started to do this more in my personal life. It is telling people that you love them, like legit love them for the reasons that they are in your life.

My colleagues have been on the receiving ends of a few of love you's recently, and definitely my friends and my friends are picking up on it and actually returning it. There's gratitude around these connections and what it is that we're providing for each other at this time. And it's just try not to get teary about how beautiful that really is.

But let's move on. In the book, you talk about the foundation of love being self acceptance and that safe is sexy because safety is the foundation of what allows relationships to be fun, spontaneous and creative. And that definitely ties into the importance of self esteem that we have spoken to a little bit, but it also gives some kudos to those notions of pleasure and excitement.

And I think that's what the spontaneity brings, but are you able to talk a little bit more about that in your love section?

[00:45:16] Chris Cheers: Yeah. Well, as I said, love for me is, is a commitment to action. So as you said before, you know, it's beautiful to use this word, like, I love you. I ought to use the word love, and I think it's really important to think about how we're using the word because for me to say, I love you, and I, I do say, I love you to my friends. As I said to my core people, but what I love about Dunbar's work that I try to use is that you can't love everyone. You, you, when I talk about, I think it's important to see love as a commitment , uh, you know, Dunbar says kind of around, well, and I've used this work to create this theory, but, but around those kind of 15 to 20 people, those are the people I would say you should say I love because it's, because to, for me to say you love someone is a commitment to that relationship.

Is a commitment to make that relationship work. And to me, it's a commitment to creating a sense of belonging. And you can't belong, you can't feel a sense of belonging to, to a group, unless you are yourself, because belonging comes from, this is who I am, and someone says, I love that person. I understand and I validate that person. So that's what I mean, it has to start with self acceptance. We need to accept ourselves before we can then do that really difficult, vulnerable thing of sharing that stuff with someone else that's connection. And then as you've talked about, the other part of love is safety. I think we talk about sex, we talk about pleasure. These things in some of your relationships will be part of some of that 15. Sex will be part of some of those relationships. And that is, where safety comes in, safety is when we get to play. Safety is when, you know, that safety is often the foundation for good sex for that kind of pleasure.

But for me, safety also means boundaries. So the book, I talk a lot about how we set boundaries, how we express boundaries, how we communicate boundaries, because in the end, boundaries in relationships are also what allows us to feel safe. So for me, that that's a real part of love as well.

[00:47:12] Naomi Viret: And you heard it here first On The Couch, I reckon there's a saying, and I reckon it's not, I love you, I love us and what we are together.

Heard it here first, could be a good second book title and I want in on it. Um, look, it wouldn't be a Caddyshack couch session if we didn't talk about sex. And so I just want to touch on the quote, "Let's remove the idea of love from sex. Sex is not a measure of love". Are you able to discuss that point for us?

[00:47:40] Chris Cheers: Yeah. For me, I like to separate love and desire. I like to separate, cause for me, love, as I said, is something we feel for friends, is something we feel for other people in our lives that we're competing to have acceptance, belonging, connection with. I think why I like to separate the two is, sex, it's okay sometimes that sex requires work to be maintained, in a safe, playful way in a relationship. So you can love someone intimately, like closely, and you can be intimate with someone, but it, but sometimes to maintain sex because of a million, as you all know, you know, the million different reasons why sex changes with time, libido changes with time. I like to separate the two because I want people to know, to be able to say, I love you to someone, but sex for us right now, we need to work on it.

And that work, I don't want to, I wish there was a different reason, a word for work, because I don't want it to sound like work because it can be playful and fun and, and that's what it should feel like, but.

[00:48:43] Naomi Viret: We commit to it. We need to commit to it. It's changing.

[00:48:47] Chris Cheers: And exactly, and commit that it's uncomfortable and weird to sometimes do some of these things.

But I think separating it allows us to have a conversation about it, because when we connect the two that love, and sex are the same, it makes it hard to talk about to our partners because it feels like we're saying that the relationship is dying, or that this, this is a problem that means we're going to have to break up.

That's the kind of language I think that begins when we start to see love and sex is the same thing. What I want people to think about is saying, we love each other, we're committed to each other to making this work. We've got to work on this sex thing, you know, and that, and that's okay. Because the idea of keeping a playful, pleasurable, sex life with someone for decades is, is a ridiculous idea. It's really challenging and it's okay that that requires some help, some work. I think that that's the kind of conversations I want people to be having.

[00:49:43] Jennifer Farinella: Thanks for listening to On The Couch. We create this podcast because we are allies in actively challenging discrimination, microaggressions, and exclusionary behaviors. We want to create spaces where people feel safe to share their thoughts, knowing they will be heard and respected. Such an environment fosters collaboration, innovation, and contributes to a more inclusive society.

Connect with us on Instagram and Facebook where you can share On The Couch with your colleagues, friends, and family. On The Couch is made by Jennifer Farinella, Naomi Viret Maddy Stratten and Winnie Adamson.

Until next time, peace, love and protection.